Jack Dorsey skipped ActivityPub, built AtProto, lost Twitter, funded Bluesky, watched it become a company with VCs and a board, said it was "repeating all the mistakes," left, and now funds Nostr.

@rakoo @baralheia @thisismissem @mastodonmigration @cwebber

Yeah great question! It's that everything past the local level is flat from a network/protocol level - all communities are 'equidistant' at the network layer, which isn't how it works for human communication and society.

So I'm agreeing with your point about circles of trust, but down a layer at the protocol - and I don't think it's an accident that Mastodon and other fedi software have not really gone very far in implementing such things given that - while it's certainly possible - it's not inherent in AP.

But yeah I think AP is far *closer* to how humans actually communicate than atproto

@rakoo @ricci @thisismissem this makes the most sense to me. I think "we" on the AP have a hard time with this because we alternate between servers describing themselves as neutral providers a la email or already being community focused (like the Indieweb server I'm on).

PS by the Threadiverse do you mean Threads and some other assortment of apps?

I think the way Laurens described reddit as

@rakoo@blah.rako.space completely right.

The "community" aspect on microblog UI is shallow at best. Instance names and domains are signalling community, but you're still screaming into a public town square about anything and everything.

Threadiverse absolutely does it better, but the crossover between it and the wider fediverse is minimal at best (I am posting on NodeBB right now.)

I'm going to be talking about this next week at FediMTL!

https://fedimtl.ca

cc @thisismissem@hachyderm.io @mcneely@indieweb.social

@julian @rakoo @thisismissem I think it would be great to hear about how the experience could potentially be improved for communities. The local timeline exists but it certainly isn't prominently featured.

@rakoo @ricci @thisismissem thanks!

Even then, the local timeline is more of a "catch-all" bucket for discussing anything, not really topic-focused.

Which isn't wrong, per se, just a different way of presenting content, one that loses a lot of context (context collapse, one could call it <img class="not-responsive emoji" src="https://activitypub.space/assets/plugins/nodebb-plugin-emoji/emoji/android/1f60f.png?v=f7cc58fdd6b" title="" /> )

@mcneely@indieweb.social @rakoo@blah.rako.space

@rakoo @thisismissem

I think it's nuts that Masto doesn't have local-only posts, it would be the easiest thing in the world to do, it's entirely natural to the underlying data model. Good on blacksky for building it first.

Re: @thisismissem 's point AP not directly matching how communities form, this is the kind of thing I had in mind when I said that neither AP nor activitypub is directly modeling human interaction. But AP is closer because there are large chunks of the fediverse where it does actually fit community. The instance I'm on is one such example, the local feed is heavily slanted towards people who have interests related to me, we moderate based on our own community standards, and all that. Many of the people I interact with are on similarly-sized instances that have their own noticeable community.

@ricci @rakoo are you abbreviating AP as AT Protocol? Because AP is how I (and many others) write ActivityPub — AT Protocol is ATP or sometimes AT (the IETF WG is ATP)

@rakoo @ricci now that Gargron is out of the way, I really hope @mellifluousbox and @renchap bring local-only posts to mainline Mastodon. It'd be such a huge help to moderators & server admins, it's not funny, and that's before you even get to the needs of server-local communities that you *don't* want federating.

Also, custom collections support to support addressing for Groups would be fantastic. I know Jesse from Frequency already has an implementation of that on top of a mastodon codebase

@thisismissem @rakoo I'm using AP to mean ActivityPub. I was agreeing with your point that in many spaces, AP doesn't necessarily line up with community boundaries - but also pointing out that sometimes it does, and this happens much more naturally with AP than atproto

@ricci @rakoo that shouldn't happen!

It's a bug, at least, that's how it's described today.

This is how it's envisioned to work: https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3m2j6ccx2bs2t

Essentially, if you're on a bsky PDS, and you act poorly on bsky.app, as long as you've not done anything strictly illegal or network abuse, the ban should only be on bsky.app — though they could also tell you: hey, we don't want to host your repo/account anymore, please find another PDS host (and provide instructions and state "even though we're asking you to move, moving will not change you being banned from bsky.app"

The only time your repo should be taken down is *if* you post strictly illegal content that your PDS host has liabilities for (CSAM, TVEC, etc), and bsky.app would send your PDS admin a notification informing them that bsky has detected that content on their server.

@ricci @rakoo ooh, thought I should check because you said this "said that neither AP nor activitypub is directly" and M nor M doesn't really make sense. Felt like you meant "AP nor ATP" there?

@ricci @rakoo arguably a repo should probably advertise it's (primary) relays, which could help here (though would be complex.

Relays should be simple pipes, and only network level abuse would be moderated (or that strictly illegal content that PDSes should action).

That's the same as like how cloudflare describes itself (even though they took down switter)

But I think we'll get there with regards to correct moderation at the correct layers soon or eventually. I definitely want to see this fixed