Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses.
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@ludicity asking this question speaks inexperience loudly. Incompetence is widespread in all areas of life. Even before LLMs. Especially in enterprise.
Curiously, this confession just popped up on Fesshole, it talks about a technical role but could be about almost any office job
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We must welcome folks with no experience, and not deride them as being “useless”.
Lack of compassion and human engagement, and the capitalists dream of the 10x hero programmer got us into this mess.
It’s your job to develop your team. Train them. Believe in them. Support them.
It’s not a pissing contest.
@knowuh Sure, though we're talking about "Fifteen year veteran that doesn't use Git", not "Fresh grad that doesn't use Git". Like someone that is prima facie not worth their salary, and would surprise their manager if they understood how large the skill gap is.
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@ludicity For the record, I work at a software company that employs ~10k developers.
Before LLMs, I'd encounter such engineers a couple of times a month, but I interact with a lot of engineers, specifically the ones that need help or are new at the company or industry at large, so it's a selected sample. Even the most inexperienced ones are willing and able to learn with some guidance.
After LLMs, there's been a significant uptick, and these new ones are grossly incompetent, incurious, impatient, and behave like addicts if their supply of tokens is at all interrupted. If they run out of prompt credits, its an emergency because they claim they can't do any work at all. They can't even explain the architecture of what they are making anymore, and can't even file tickets or send emails without an LLM writing it for them, and they certainly lack in any kind of reading comprehension.
It's bleak and depressing, and makes me want to quit the industry altogether.
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@ludicity Depends. Rarely professionally, but I did most of my hiring for most of my life and I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe during the interviews.
The worst people were exactly like LLM - stupid, loud and unable to admit they are wrong.
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Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses. He asked on Bluesky and will get sub-Mastodon-tier answers:
"This is a serious question and I would be delighted if I only hear great things but, software engineers: both before and after LLMs, how often in your professional lives have you run into software engineers that seem completely useless or lacking in basic knowledge? I hope the answer is rarely"
@ludicity i don't quite know how to tell ed that, like basically every other field of endeavor, software is permeable to people who have no useful idea what they're doing.
(or, i guess, that some of the people who lack basic knowledge and have no ability to contribute will probably stay that way forever but that many others eventually figure things out and become pretty effective.)
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Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses. He asked on Bluesky and will get sub-Mastodon-tier answers:
"This is a serious question and I would be delighted if I only hear great things but, software engineers: both before and after LLMs, how often in your professional lives have you run into software engineers that seem completely useless or lacking in basic knowledge? I hope the answer is rarely"
@ludicity 10 years in data engineering. "Completely useless" is something I've only seen a few times, more often in non-technical managers which wasn't the question.
I do often see engineers who don't understood best practices or good architecture. Or don't understand the frameworks they are using. Or frankly just don't try.
The LLM spell mostly affects the beginner or mediocre engineer. Senior engineers find them mostly frustrating but occasionally useful.
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@ludicity For the record, I work at a software company that employs ~10k developers.
Before LLMs, I'd encounter such engineers a couple of times a month, but I interact with a lot of engineers, specifically the ones that need help or are new at the company or industry at large, so it's a selected sample. Even the most inexperienced ones are willing and able to learn with some guidance.
After LLMs, there's been a significant uptick, and these new ones are grossly incompetent, incurious, impatient, and behave like addicts if their supply of tokens is at all interrupted. If they run out of prompt credits, its an emergency because they claim they can't do any work at all. They can't even explain the architecture of what they are making anymore, and can't even file tickets or send emails without an LLM writing it for them, and they certainly lack in any kind of reading comprehension.
It's bleak and depressing, and makes me want to quit the industry altogether.
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@ludicity For the record, I work at a software company that employs ~10k developers.
Before LLMs, I'd encounter such engineers a couple of times a month, but I interact with a lot of engineers, specifically the ones that need help or are new at the company or industry at large, so it's a selected sample. Even the most inexperienced ones are willing and able to learn with some guidance.
After LLMs, there's been a significant uptick, and these new ones are grossly incompetent, incurious, impatient, and behave like addicts if their supply of tokens is at all interrupted. If they run out of prompt credits, its an emergency because they claim they can't do any work at all. They can't even explain the architecture of what they are making anymore, and can't even file tickets or send emails without an LLM writing it for them, and they certainly lack in any kind of reading comprehension.
It's bleak and depressing, and makes me want to quit the industry altogether.
@drikanis @ludicity The writing was on the wall when front end developers stopped being able to do anything if there wasn't already a component in a library somewhere they could import.
"Can we have that as a drop down list with an icon next to each item?”, I say.
"No”, they say, “I don't think our framework has that”
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@ludicity Ask me how many times someone other than me has, in my presence, used or mentioned using a debugger (As contrary to inserting a bunch of debug prints in the code).
Zero. It’s zero times.
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@ludicity For the record, I work at a software company that employs ~10k developers.
Before LLMs, I'd encounter such engineers a couple of times a month, but I interact with a lot of engineers, specifically the ones that need help or are new at the company or industry at large, so it's a selected sample. Even the most inexperienced ones are willing and able to learn with some guidance.
After LLMs, there's been a significant uptick, and these new ones are grossly incompetent, incurious, impatient, and behave like addicts if their supply of tokens is at all interrupted. If they run out of prompt credits, its an emergency because they claim they can't do any work at all. They can't even explain the architecture of what they are making anymore, and can't even file tickets or send emails without an LLM writing it for them, and they certainly lack in any kind of reading comprehension.
It's bleak and depressing, and makes me want to quit the industry altogether.
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@ludicity For the record, I work at a software company that employs ~10k developers.
Before LLMs, I'd encounter such engineers a couple of times a month, but I interact with a lot of engineers, specifically the ones that need help or are new at the company or industry at large, so it's a selected sample. Even the most inexperienced ones are willing and able to learn with some guidance.
After LLMs, there's been a significant uptick, and these new ones are grossly incompetent, incurious, impatient, and behave like addicts if their supply of tokens is at all interrupted. If they run out of prompt credits, its an emergency because they claim they can't do any work at all. They can't even explain the architecture of what they are making anymore, and can't even file tickets or send emails without an LLM writing it for them, and they certainly lack in any kind of reading comprehension.
It's bleak and depressing, and makes me want to quit the industry altogether.
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Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses. He asked on Bluesky and will get sub-Mastodon-tier answers:
"This is a serious question and I would be delighted if I only hear great things but, software engineers: both before and after LLMs, how often in your professional lives have you run into software engineers that seem completely useless or lacking in basic knowledge? I hope the answer is rarely"
@ludicity I'm pretty sure a bunch of my coworkers are incompetent and/or disinterested, myself included, but our engineering job is so braindead that it doesn't matter much.
Anyone can take some json event and send it off to a different event. I think many of us would count as incompetent in a less stupid environment. So the answer is "all the time, probably?"But we also barely hired anyone since the LLM boom so maybe I'm lacking the floor comparison.
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@arichtman @ludicity it's worse, but it was always bad
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@arichtman @ludicity like the old gag goes:
How many people do you have working for you?
About 50% -
@Patrickoldhiker @drikanis @ludicity Amen to that. The fact that I'm so close to retirement is a great source of comfort to me. Yeah, I enjoy my job, and I know I'm good at it. I do not need to use an LLM for anything.
But should I get that dreaded conversation tomorrow and a disappointing redundancy package, it would no longer be a cause for concern.
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Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses. He asked on Bluesky and will get sub-Mastodon-tier answers:
"This is a serious question and I would be delighted if I only hear great things but, software engineers: both before and after LLMs, how often in your professional lives have you run into software engineers that seem completely useless or lacking in basic knowledge? I hope the answer is rarely"
@ludicity Rarely proportionately, frequently absolutely.
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@Patrickoldhiker @drikanis @ludicity Amen to that. The fact that I'm so close to retirement is a great source of comfort to me. Yeah, I enjoy my job, and I know I'm good at it. I do not need to use an LLM for anything.
But should I get that dreaded conversation tomorrow and a disappointing redundancy package, it would no longer be a cause for concern.
@rozeboosje @Patrickoldhiker @drikanis @ludicity I'm seeing this comment a lot (and I would feel the same were I closer to retirement). LLMs are pushing knowledge and experience out of the workforce and replacing it with vibes.
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Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses. He asked on Bluesky and will get sub-Mastodon-tier answers:
"This is a serious question and I would be delighted if I only hear great things but, software engineers: both before and after LLMs, how often in your professional lives have you run into software engineers that seem completely useless or lacking in basic knowledge? I hope the answer is rarely"
@ludicity I've done technical interviews of 100+ candidates for software engineering roles over the years. Around 90% of them didn't pass muster. And that's after a CV screening by HR (for whatever that's worth) and a preliminary interview with a teamlead.
It is RIDICULOUS how many career programmers are, in fact, not able to program anything in their language of choice. I'm not talking about having to google how to open a socket, but about how to write a god damned loop ... Awful incompetence.
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@ludicity I've done technical interviews of 100+ candidates for software engineering roles over the years. Around 90% of them didn't pass muster. And that's after a CV screening by HR (for whatever that's worth) and a preliminary interview with a teamlead.
It is RIDICULOUS how many career programmers are, in fact, not able to program anything in their language of choice. I'm not talking about having to google how to open a socket, but about how to write a god damned loop ... Awful incompetence.
@ludicity Maybe these people have other qualities that I didn't screen for in my interviews. Maybe LLMs will let those qualities shine through.
But secretly, the cynic in me thinks this is going to be garbage in, garbage out, only at a hitherto unseen scale.
