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  3. We'll see how I feel in the morning, but for now i seem to have convinced myself to actually read that fuckin anthropic paper

We'll see how I feel in the morning, but for now i seem to have convinced myself to actually read that fuckin anthropic paper

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  • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

    "AI" is not actually a technology, in the way people would commonly understand that term.

    If you're feeling extremely generous, you could say that AI is a marketing term for a loose and shifting bundle of technologies that have specific useful applications.

    I am not feeling so generous.

    AI is a technocratic political project for the purpose of industrializing knowledge work. The details of how it works are a distant secondary concern to the effect it has, which is to enclose and capture all knowledge work and make it dependent on capital.

    Wulfy—Speaker to the machinesN This user is from outside of this forum
    Wulfy—Speaker to the machinesN This user is from outside of this forum
    Wulfy—Speaker to the machines
    wrote last edited by
    #20

    @jenniferplusplus

    #regulateai

    1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

      And now for a short break

      JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
      JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
      Jenniferplusplus
      wrote last edited by
      #21

      I have eaten. I may be _slightly_ less cranky.

      Ok! The results section! For the paper "How AI Impacts Skill Formation"

      > we design a coding task and evaluation around a relatively new asynchronous Python library and conduct randomized experiments to understand the impact
      of AI assistance on task completion time and skill development

      ...

      Task completion time. Right. So, unless the difference is large enough that it could change whether or not people can learn things at all in a given practice or instructional period, I don't know why we're concerned with task completion time.

      Well, I mean, I have a theory. It's because "AI makes you more productive" is the central justification behind the political project, and this is largely a political document.

      JenniferplusplusJ [ade]K 2 Replies Last reply
      0
      • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

        I have eaten. I may be _slightly_ less cranky.

        Ok! The results section! For the paper "How AI Impacts Skill Formation"

        > we design a coding task and evaluation around a relatively new asynchronous Python library and conduct randomized experiments to understand the impact
        of AI assistance on task completion time and skill development

        ...

        Task completion time. Right. So, unless the difference is large enough that it could change whether or not people can learn things at all in a given practice or instructional period, I don't know why we're concerned with task completion time.

        Well, I mean, I have a theory. It's because "AI makes you more productive" is the central justification behind the political project, and this is largely a political document.

        JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
        JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
        Jenniferplusplus
        wrote last edited by
        #22

        > We find that using AI assistance to complete
        tasks that involve this new library resulted in a reduction in the evaluation score by 17% or two grade
        points (Cohen’s d = 0.738, p = 0.010). Meanwhile, we did not find a statistically significant acceleration in
        completion time with AI assistance.

        I mean, that's an enormous effect. I'm very interested in the methods section, now.

        > Through an in-depth qualitative analysis where we watch the screen recordings of every participant in our
        main study, we explain the lack of AI productivity improvement through the additional time some participants
        invested in interacting with the AI assistant.

        ...

        Is this about learning, or is it about productivity!? God.

        > We attribute the gains in skill development of the control group to the process of encountering and subsequently resolving errors independently

        Hm. Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle. A surface level read would suggest that the stochastic chatbot actually has a counter-instructional effect. But again, we'll see what the methods actually are.

        JenniferplusplusJ Paul CantrellI Cat HicksG catchC 4 Replies Last reply
        0
        • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

          > We find that using AI assistance to complete
          tasks that involve this new library resulted in a reduction in the evaluation score by 17% or two grade
          points (Cohen’s d = 0.738, p = 0.010). Meanwhile, we did not find a statistically significant acceleration in
          completion time with AI assistance.

          I mean, that's an enormous effect. I'm very interested in the methods section, now.

          > Through an in-depth qualitative analysis where we watch the screen recordings of every participant in our
          main study, we explain the lack of AI productivity improvement through the additional time some participants
          invested in interacting with the AI assistant.

          ...

          Is this about learning, or is it about productivity!? God.

          > We attribute the gains in skill development of the control group to the process of encountering and subsequently resolving errors independently

          Hm. Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle. A surface level read would suggest that the stochastic chatbot actually has a counter-instructional effect. But again, we'll see what the methods actually are.

          JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
          JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
          Jenniferplusplus
          wrote last edited by
          #23

          They reference these figures a lot, so I'll make sure to include them here.

          > Figure 1: Overview of results: (Left) We find a significant decrease in library-specific skills (conceptual
          understanding, code reading, and debugging) among workers using AI assistance for completing tasks with a
          new python library. (Right) We categorize AI usage patterns and found three high skill development patterns
          where participants stay cognitively engaged when using AI assistance

          MikalaiM JenniferplusplusJ 2 Replies Last reply
          0
          • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

            > We find that using AI assistance to complete
            tasks that involve this new library resulted in a reduction in the evaluation score by 17% or two grade
            points (Cohen’s d = 0.738, p = 0.010). Meanwhile, we did not find a statistically significant acceleration in
            completion time with AI assistance.

            I mean, that's an enormous effect. I'm very interested in the methods section, now.

            > Through an in-depth qualitative analysis where we watch the screen recordings of every participant in our
            main study, we explain the lack of AI productivity improvement through the additional time some participants
            invested in interacting with the AI assistant.

            ...

            Is this about learning, or is it about productivity!? God.

            > We attribute the gains in skill development of the control group to the process of encountering and subsequently resolving errors independently

            Hm. Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle. A surface level read would suggest that the stochastic chatbot actually has a counter-instructional effect. But again, we'll see what the methods actually are.

            Paul CantrellI This user is from outside of this forum
            Paul CantrellI This user is from outside of this forum
            Paul Cantrell
            wrote last edited by
            #24

            @jenniferplusplus

            > Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle.

            I don’t think this is necessarily a true statement? Guided learning beats unproductive struggle, but learning through struggle that eventually succeed produces far better retention etc than guided learning that becomes passive/receptive. There’s a huge literature on this that I’m not up on at all, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t break cleanly along that particular line.

            (I don’t think my quibble derails your larger train of thought here)

            0xC0DEC0DE07EAC Rachael LR JenniferplusplusJ 3 Replies Last reply
            0
            • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

              They reference these figures a lot, so I'll make sure to include them here.

              > Figure 1: Overview of results: (Left) We find a significant decrease in library-specific skills (conceptual
              understanding, code reading, and debugging) among workers using AI assistance for completing tasks with a
              new python library. (Right) We categorize AI usage patterns and found three high skill development patterns
              where participants stay cognitively engaged when using AI assistance

              MikalaiM This user is from outside of this forum
              MikalaiM This user is from outside of this forum
              Mikalai
              wrote last edited by
              #25

              @jenniferplusplus
              Should title read there:
              Impact of not forming mental, due to trusting and outsourcing thinking to AI in this case.

              1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • Paul CantrellI Paul Cantrell

                @jenniferplusplus

                > Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle.

                I don’t think this is necessarily a true statement? Guided learning beats unproductive struggle, but learning through struggle that eventually succeed produces far better retention etc than guided learning that becomes passive/receptive. There’s a huge literature on this that I’m not up on at all, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t break cleanly along that particular line.

                (I don’t think my quibble derails your larger train of thought here)

                0xC0DEC0DE07EAC This user is from outside of this forum
                0xC0DEC0DE07EAC This user is from outside of this forum
                0xC0DEC0DE07EA
                wrote last edited by
                #26

                @inthehands @jenniferplusplus I would say that regardless whether guided learning from an entity that actually knows the material or independent learning tested against reality both best working with jumped-up autocorrect. The machine will tell you that you’re doing great things while spitting out garbage—counter-instructional is certainly one way to put it.

                aoanlaA 1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                  They reference these figures a lot, so I'll make sure to include them here.

                  > Figure 1: Overview of results: (Left) We find a significant decrease in library-specific skills (conceptual
                  understanding, code reading, and debugging) among workers using AI assistance for completing tasks with a
                  new python library. (Right) We categorize AI usage patterns and found three high skill development patterns
                  where participants stay cognitively engaged when using AI assistance

                  JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                  JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                  Jenniferplusplus
                  wrote last edited by
                  #27

                  > As AI development progresses, the problem of supervising more and more capable AI systems becomes more difficult if humans have weaker abilities to understand code [Bowman et al., 2022]. When complex software tasks require human-AI collaboration,
                  humans still need to understand the basic concepts of code development even if their software skills are
                  complementary to the strengths of AI [Wang et al., 2020].

                  Right, sure. Except, there is actually a third option. But it's one that seems inconceivable to the authors. That is to not use AI in this context. I'm not even necessarily arguing* that's better. But if this is supposed to be sincere scholarship, how is that not even under consideration?

                  *well, I am arguing that, in the context of AI as a political project. If you had similar programs that were developed and deployed in a way that empowers people, rather than disempowers them, this would be a very different conversation. Of course, I would also argue that very same political project is why it's inconceivable to the authors, soooo

                  JenniferplusplusJ 1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • 0xC0DEC0DE07EAC 0xC0DEC0DE07EA

                    @inthehands @jenniferplusplus I would say that regardless whether guided learning from an entity that actually knows the material or independent learning tested against reality both best working with jumped-up autocorrect. The machine will tell you that you’re doing great things while spitting out garbage—counter-instructional is certainly one way to put it.

                    aoanlaA This user is from outside of this forum
                    aoanlaA This user is from outside of this forum
                    aoanla
                    wrote last edited by
                    #28

                    @c0dec0dec0de @inthehands @jenniferplusplus I think the problem is actually *engagement* - as well as correct challenge, learning requires active engagement with material (and effort to internalise it). Getting an LLM etc to "help" tends to reward disengagement (as well as potentially allowing you to "reduce the challenge" to the point where you're not actually doing anything hard yourself).

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • Paul CantrellI Paul Cantrell

                      @jenniferplusplus

                      > Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle.

                      I don’t think this is necessarily a true statement? Guided learning beats unproductive struggle, but learning through struggle that eventually succeed produces far better retention etc than guided learning that becomes passive/receptive. There’s a huge literature on this that I’m not up on at all, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t break cleanly along that particular line.

                      (I don’t think my quibble derails your larger train of thought here)

                      Rachael LR This user is from outside of this forum
                      Rachael LR This user is from outside of this forum
                      Rachael L
                      wrote last edited by
                      #29

                      @inthehands @jenniferplusplus One of my personal hesitance to use the LLM tools much (despite incredible professional pressure to do so) is that my use of it (again, under professional necessity) has re-enforced my pre-existing belief that struggling through a problem, debugging and digging through source and so on has been CRITICAL to my skill development. It is something I have for (uh) 15+ years told less experienced software developers is critical to getting better / faster!

                      Rachael LR Dawn AhukannaD 2 Replies Last reply
                      0
                      • Rachael LR Rachael L

                        @inthehands @jenniferplusplus One of my personal hesitance to use the LLM tools much (despite incredible professional pressure to do so) is that my use of it (again, under professional necessity) has re-enforced my pre-existing belief that struggling through a problem, debugging and digging through source and so on has been CRITICAL to my skill development. It is something I have for (uh) 15+ years told less experienced software developers is critical to getting better / faster!

                        Rachael LR This user is from outside of this forum
                        Rachael LR This user is from outside of this forum
                        Rachael L
                        wrote last edited by
                        #30

                        @inthehands @jenniferplusplus Maybe there is a way to use things like Claude Code in ways that don’t disrupt this struggle learning pattern. This is one thing I’ve been trying to work out for myself! But so far I’ve not seen much about this concern or how the tools could be used in a way that results in the equivalent learning.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • Paul CantrellI Paul Cantrell

                          @jenniferplusplus

                          > Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle.

                          I don’t think this is necessarily a true statement? Guided learning beats unproductive struggle, but learning through struggle that eventually succeed produces far better retention etc than guided learning that becomes passive/receptive. There’s a huge literature on this that I’m not up on at all, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t break cleanly along that particular line.

                          (I don’t think my quibble derails your larger train of thought here)

                          JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                          JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                          Jenniferplusplus
                          wrote last edited by
                          #31

                          @inthehands Right, it's not universally the case. There are bad instructors and bad instructional contexts.

                          Paul CantrellI 1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                            I have eaten. I may be _slightly_ less cranky.

                            Ok! The results section! For the paper "How AI Impacts Skill Formation"

                            > we design a coding task and evaluation around a relatively new asynchronous Python library and conduct randomized experiments to understand the impact
                            of AI assistance on task completion time and skill development

                            ...

                            Task completion time. Right. So, unless the difference is large enough that it could change whether or not people can learn things at all in a given practice or instructional period, I don't know why we're concerned with task completion time.

                            Well, I mean, I have a theory. It's because "AI makes you more productive" is the central justification behind the political project, and this is largely a political document.

                            [ade]K This user is from outside of this forum
                            [ade]K This user is from outside of this forum
                            [ade]
                            wrote last edited by
                            #32

                            @jenniferplusplus you have inspired me to read it as well (over beer and pizza) and .. yeah, what she said. I think i gave up before the results section. i did feel that the prep-work to calibrate the experiment (e.g the local item dependence in the quiz) was pretty well done, but i will defer to any sociologist who says otherwise.

                            Why is all the so-called productivity in the paper at all?

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                              So, back to the paper.

                              "How AI Impacts Skill Formation"
                              https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.20245

                              The very first sentence of the abstract:

                              > AI assistance produces significant productivity gains across professional domains, particularly for novice workers.

                              1. The evidence for this is mixed, and the effect is small.
                              2. That's not even the purpose of this study. The design of the study doesn't support drawing conclusions in this area.

                              Of course, the authors will repeat this claim frequently. Which brings us back to MY priors, which is that this is largely a political document.

                              CassandrichD This user is from outside of this forum
                              CassandrichD This user is from outside of this forum
                              Cassandrich
                              wrote last edited by
                              #33

                              @jenniferplusplus It's less a claim and more an intentionally-unsubstantiated background premise which the supposed research will treat as an assumed truth.

                              JenniferplusplusJ 1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                                @inthehands Right, it's not universally the case. There are bad instructors and bad instructional contexts.

                                Paul CantrellI This user is from outside of this forum
                                Paul CantrellI This user is from outside of this forum
                                Paul Cantrell
                                wrote last edited by
                                #34

                                @jenniferplusplus
                                …and good struggles, which are what good instructors help create

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • CassandrichD Cassandrich

                                  @jenniferplusplus It's less a claim and more an intentionally-unsubstantiated background premise which the supposed research will treat as an assumed truth.

                                  JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                  JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Jenniferplusplus
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #35

                                  @dalias Honestly, yes. I suspect the purpose of this paper is to reinforce that production is a correct and necessary factor to consider when making decisions about AI.

                                  And secondarily, I suspect it's establishing justification for blaming workers for undesirable outcomes; it's our fault for choosing to learn badly.

                                  CassandrichD 1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                                    > As AI development progresses, the problem of supervising more and more capable AI systems becomes more difficult if humans have weaker abilities to understand code [Bowman et al., 2022]. When complex software tasks require human-AI collaboration,
                                    humans still need to understand the basic concepts of code development even if their software skills are
                                    complementary to the strengths of AI [Wang et al., 2020].

                                    Right, sure. Except, there is actually a third option. But it's one that seems inconceivable to the authors. That is to not use AI in this context. I'm not even necessarily arguing* that's better. But if this is supposed to be sincere scholarship, how is that not even under consideration?

                                    *well, I am arguing that, in the context of AI as a political project. If you had similar programs that were developed and deployed in a way that empowers people, rather than disempowers them, this would be a very different conversation. Of course, I would also argue that very same political project is why it's inconceivable to the authors, soooo

                                    JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                    JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Jenniferplusplus
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #36

                                    And then we switch back to background context. We get a 11 sentences of AI = productivity. Then 3 sentences on "cognitive offloading". 4 sentences on skill retention. And 4 on "over reliance". So, fully 50% of the background section of the "AI Impacts on Skill Formation" paper is about productivity.

                                    JenniferplusplusJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                                      "AI" is not actually a technology, in the way people would commonly understand that term.

                                      If you're feeling extremely generous, you could say that AI is a marketing term for a loose and shifting bundle of technologies that have specific useful applications.

                                      I am not feeling so generous.

                                      AI is a technocratic political project for the purpose of industrializing knowledge work. The details of how it works are a distant secondary concern to the effect it has, which is to enclose and capture all knowledge work and make it dependent on capital.

                                      josh g.J This user is from outside of this forum
                                      josh g.J This user is from outside of this forum
                                      josh g.
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #37

                                      @jenniferplusplus
                                      bookmarked for future reference, boosting is not enough

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                                        I just

                                        I'm not actually in the habit of reading academic research papers like this. Is it normal to begin these things by confidently asserting your priors as fact, unsupported by anything in the study?

                                        I suppose I should do the same, because there's no way it's not going to inform my read on this

                                        Cat HicksG This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Cat HicksG This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Cat Hicks
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #38

                                        @jenniferplusplus it's not a great lit review/paper in terms of connecting to broader literature; that is however typical for software research (not for more empirical fields like psychology imho)

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                                          > We find that using AI assistance to complete
                                          tasks that involve this new library resulted in a reduction in the evaluation score by 17% or two grade
                                          points (Cohen’s d = 0.738, p = 0.010). Meanwhile, we did not find a statistically significant acceleration in
                                          completion time with AI assistance.

                                          I mean, that's an enormous effect. I'm very interested in the methods section, now.

                                          > Through an in-depth qualitative analysis where we watch the screen recordings of every participant in our
                                          main study, we explain the lack of AI productivity improvement through the additional time some participants
                                          invested in interacting with the AI assistant.

                                          ...

                                          Is this about learning, or is it about productivity!? God.

                                          > We attribute the gains in skill development of the control group to the process of encountering and subsequently resolving errors independently

                                          Hm. Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle. A surface level read would suggest that the stochastic chatbot actually has a counter-instructional effect. But again, we'll see what the methods actually are.

                                          Cat HicksG This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Cat HicksG This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Cat Hicks
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #39

                                          @jenniferplusplus "Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle"

                                          I'm not sure I agree! Desirable difficulties literature and metacognition lit both agree short term failures can lead to better long term retention (people's lack of belief in this is often pointed to as a reason we engage in inefficient problem solving). That is one reason project based learning can sometimes beat sage on a stage lectures

                                          Eg classic lit here: https://bjorklab.psych.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2016/04/EBjork_RBjork_2011.pdf

                                          JenniferplusplusJ 1 Reply Last reply
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