Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
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@zzt @firefoxwebdevs You'd never have to say "consent", "opt in", "opt out", or "kill switch" again if you put design energy into overcoming whatever (WHATEVER) barriers are preventing all of these things being add-ons.
@fasterandworse @firefoxwebdevs it’s bold of you to tell Mozilla to throw their entire executive board and most of their PMs into the office dumpster (the one the kitchen uses) and reform as a co-op but I agree
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@fasterandworse @firefoxwebdevs it’s bold of you to tell Mozilla to throw their entire executive board and most of their PMs into the office dumpster (the one the kitchen uses) and reform as a co-op but I agree
@zzt @firefoxwebdevs now would be good, before that new CMO is breathing heavily over the shoulder
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@firefoxwebdevs jonah, I hate to break it to you and the LLM shaped like a product manager that’s setting the agenda for your meetings, but the only time I hear about Firefox translations in any context is when Mozilla PMs try to hold it up as an example of an ethical, low-resource, useful AI feature so they can convince to be a fan of the worthless LLM shit they’re actually there to push
the reason why I don’t hear about translations otherwise is simple: it’s shit
@zzt @firefoxwebdevs I've used it numerous times this week and it looks good to me.
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@zzt @firefoxwebdevs I've used it numerous times this week and it looks good to me.
@tasket @firefoxwebdevs holy shit Josh you’ve done it you’ve found the user!
quick ask them if the LLM kill switch should also turn off manifest v2 they might go for it
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
If a kill switch doesn’t kill can it still be called a kill switch?
The best solution is to divide those functionalities. Translation can be a completely separate function.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs your translations are bad and you should feel bad. both about them and about this poll.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs You sold out to the clankers.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs How are the models not LLMs, if they are trained on large datasets and generate text?
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@firefoxwebdevs How are the models not LLMs, if they are trained on large datasets and generate text?
@Fnordinger https://www.neuralconcept.com/post/ml-vs-llm-key-differences-applications-engineering-impact seems like a good overview
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@tasket @firefoxwebdevs holy shit Josh you’ve done it you’ve found the user!
quick ask them if the LLM kill switch should also turn off manifest v2 they might go for it
@zzt That would be funny.
But look at the Firefox forks... some had to bring back translation after (mistakenly) disabling it. I don't think any of the local ML API should be suppressed. The discussion should be about shoving LLMs into places where they don't belong.
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@sil @firefoxwebdevs I suspect they can't, even if they wanted to.
I think the challenge with everything going on here is one of clarity.
@sil, you are asking them about disclosure of models and sourcing. But that is far from the only AI that is in the system.
The tool that does grammar checking and language identification does not leverage an LLM, and while there may be some type of model underneath, the context is very different. Tools that detect spam pages or faulty JavaScript that locks the pages, that's another type of AI hard at work.
Is the browser allowed to support speech to text?
@jmax You're calling out that Firefox may not be able to do this, but I think that mischaracterizes the scope of what's happening here.
The browser has several types of non-deterministic, probabilistic tools in it that provide useful services. Now there's a backlash against one very specific version of those non-deterministic, probabilistic tools. But the backlash is vociferous, often unsolvable, and incredibly broad.
It's hard to engage with non-specific anger.
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@firefoxwebdevs The translation feature was unnecessary to begin with. I suspect y'all know this.
@liquor_american @firefoxwebdevs shit, I use it all of the time -
@zzt I posted this poll after a meeting where we discussed the design of the kill switch, and there was uncertainty around translations. I want to make sure the community's voice is represented in these discussions.
@firefoxwebdevs @zzt This doesn't feel honest. Maybe from you personally, sure. But not from Mozilla or the Firefox team.
That is like, I decide the car you get. The brand, the model, the color. But hey, don't worry, your voice is important too, so you are allowed to decide what bumper-sticker I will put on your car.
Seriously, this fake inclusion is kinda insulting.
Again, nothing personal against you. But where else should I share my opinion, consider Mozilla even ignores its own feedback platform
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@zzt That would be funny.
But look at the Firefox forks... some had to bring back translation after (mistakenly) disabling it. I don't think any of the local ML API should be suppressed. The discussion should be about shoving LLMs into places where they don't belong.
@tasket if you want a serious discussion about the role translations should or shouldn’t have in a browser, let me refer you to steve: https://hci.social/@fasterandworse/115849566354469222
I don’t really feel anything about the translations feature other than disappointment, a bit of concern over how the data was sourced, and a strong feeling that it shouldn’t be a core browser feature
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@liquor_american @firefoxwebdevs shit, I use it all of the time
@wes @firefoxwebdevs Sure. But can we agree that it does not represent a core functionality of a web browser?
Like "this meeting could've been an email," but "this feature could've been an add-on."
A web browser should load web pages, allow you to interact with them, and offer add-on support for functionality that doesn't match the definition of "web browser." It's all pretty straight-forward if you're not a marketer, whose brains are all broken.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs Poll is missing a radio button for "fuck you and the horse you rode in on"
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@Fnordinger https://www.neuralconcept.com/post/ml-vs-llm-key-differences-applications-engineering-impact seems like a good overview
@jaffathecake @Fnordinger that really reads like chatbot text. are you *sure* it is not?
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@Fnordinger https://www.neuralconcept.com/post/ml-vs-llm-key-differences-applications-engineering-impact seems like a good overview
@jaffathecake @Fnordinger john? this article appears to be marketing copy written by a company that sells LLMs, quite probably also written by an LLM
what are we doing here man
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
Just give me an easy to find switch that removes _all_ LLM and "AI"-features in Firefox, thank you.
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Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.
They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.
Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?
@firefoxwebdevs IMO the killswitch should kill all "Ai" features, but make it easy to re-enable ML-specific features. The main thing I don't want in my browser are LLMs/GenAI, but I know some are against ML too. Maybe there ought to be a checkbox next to the Ai killswitch button to include machine learning features in the killswitch, checked by default - but it can be unchecked before hitting the killswitch if the user desires.
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