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  3. Ok, I know promised a thread on the fascinating and important new research explaining what happened with the rare, serious side effects of AstraZeneca's and Johnson&Johnson's Covid-19 vaccines.

Ok, I know promised a thread on the fascinating and important new research explaining what happened with the rare, serious side effects of AstraZeneca's and Johnson&Johnson's Covid-19 vaccines.

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  • Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
    Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
    Kai Kupferschmidt
    wrote last edited by
    #1

    Ok, I know promised a thread on the fascinating and important new research explaining what happened with the rare, serious side effects of AstraZeneca's and Johnson&Johnson's Covid-19 vaccines.

    So, Science story by my colleague Gretchen Vogel and me is here and 🧪🧵 is coming:
    https://www.science.org/content/article/rare-dangerous-side-effects-some-covid-19-vaccines-explained

    Kai KupferschmidtK AquaClaireA 2 Replies Last reply
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    • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

      Ok, I know promised a thread on the fascinating and important new research explaining what happened with the rare, serious side effects of AstraZeneca's and Johnson&Johnson's Covid-19 vaccines.

      So, Science story by my colleague Gretchen Vogel and me is here and 🧪🧵 is coming:
      https://www.science.org/content/article/rare-dangerous-side-effects-some-covid-19-vaccines-explained

      Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
      Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
      Kai Kupferschmidt
      wrote last edited by
      #2

      First a caveat: When I was studying molecular biomedicine two of the more complex processes I learnt about were the immune system and the clotting system. What we’re talking about here is right at the intersection between the two, so uhmm bear with me.

      Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

        First a caveat: When I was studying molecular biomedicine two of the more complex processes I learnt about were the immune system and the clotting system. What we’re talking about here is right at the intersection between the two, so uhmm bear with me.

        Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
        Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
        Kai Kupferschmidt
        wrote last edited by
        #3

        So what I will do for now is just describe what the research suggests happened in the patients. I’ll try and do a thread on how they actually did the science, which I just find very satisfying, in the coming days. No promises this time.

        Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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        • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

          So what I will do for now is just describe what the research suggests happened in the patients. I’ll try and do a thread on how they actually did the science, which I just find very satisfying, in the coming days. No promises this time.

          Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
          Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
          Kai Kupferschmidt
          wrote last edited by
          #4

          Adenoviruses are common cold viruses that circulate all year round and come in dozens of different types. The two vaccines we're talking about here used adenoviruses to shuttle the gene for the Spike protein on SARS-CoV-2 into human cells so the body would produce it and mount an immune response.

          Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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          • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

            Adenoviruses are common cold viruses that circulate all year round and come in dozens of different types. The two vaccines we're talking about here used adenoviruses to shuttle the gene for the Spike protein on SARS-CoV-2 into human cells so the body would produce it and mount an immune response.

            Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
            Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
            Kai Kupferschmidt
            wrote last edited by
            #5

            (Johnson and Johnson used a human adenovirus type 26 and AstraZeneca used a chimpanzee adenovirus. There were other Covid-19 vaccines too that used adenoviruses, for instance Russia’s Sputnik V. We’ll ignore all that for now.)

            Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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            • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

              (Johnson and Johnson used a human adenovirus type 26 and AstraZeneca used a chimpanzee adenovirus. There were other Covid-19 vaccines too that used adenoviruses, for instance Russia’s Sputnik V. We’ll ignore all that for now.)

              Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
              Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
              Kai Kupferschmidt
              wrote last edited by
              #6

              The first thing that happened, happened before any immunizations: The people who later developed VITT (the side effect we are talking about here with thromboses in unusual places AND low platelets leading to bleeding) likely had an adenovirus infection at some point.

              Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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              • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

                The first thing that happened, happened before any immunizations: The people who later developed VITT (the side effect we are talking about here with thromboses in unusual places AND low platelets leading to bleeding) likely had an adenovirus infection at some point.

                Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                Kai Kupferschmidt
                wrote last edited by
                #7

                One response of our immune system to infection is for our B cells to start producing antibodies, Y-shaped molecules that can recognize invading microbes and (amongst other things) bind to them, keeping them from infecting other cells and signaling to the immune system to attack.

                Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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                • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

                  One response of our immune system to infection is for our B cells to start producing antibodies, Y-shaped molecules that can recognize invading microbes and (amongst other things) bind to them, keeping them from infecting other cells and signaling to the immune system to attack.

                  Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                  Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                  Kai Kupferschmidt
                  wrote last edited by
                  #8

                  Now this is where it gets a little tricky.
                  Different people produce different antibodies for a few reasons. One is that the instructions for building antibodies in our genome are not straight forward. Instead, we have a set of genetic segments that are mixed and matched when a B cell is created.

                  Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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                  • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

                    Now this is where it gets a little tricky.
                    Different people produce different antibodies for a few reasons. One is that the instructions for building antibodies in our genome are not straight forward. Instead, we have a set of genetic segments that are mixed and matched when a B cell is created.

                    Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                    Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                    Kai Kupferschmidt
                    wrote last edited by
                    #9

                    Imagine a deck of cards from which you pick a few cards and shuffle them. That is essentially how the part of a B cell's genome that carries the instructions for antibodies is created.
                    It's a fascinating mechanism and one reason we can produce such a huge array of different antibodies.

                    Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

                      Imagine a deck of cards from which you pick a few cards and shuffle them. That is essentially how the part of a B cell's genome that carries the instructions for antibodies is created.
                      It's a fascinating mechanism and one reason we can produce such a huge array of different antibodies.

                      Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                      Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                      Kai Kupferschmidt
                      wrote last edited by
                      #10

                      But different people also have different versions of that starting deck of cards that B cells mix and match from.
                      And only people who have one of two particular cards in their decks seem to develop VITT. (The scientific name of these "cards" is IGLV3-21*02 and IGLV3-21*03...Gotta love scientists).

                      Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

                        But different people also have different versions of that starting deck of cards that B cells mix and match from.
                        And only people who have one of two particular cards in their decks seem to develop VITT. (The scientific name of these "cards" is IGLV3-21*02 and IGLV3-21*03...Gotta love scientists).

                        Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                        Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                        Kai Kupferschmidt
                        wrote last edited by
                        #11

                        Now, when people were vaccinated, the B cells that had previously been activated against adenovirus were reactivated. And now on top of all the existing variation, the body produces lots of copies of those B cells and introduces little mutations to maybe find an even better antibody.

                        Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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                        • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

                          Now, when people were vaccinated, the B cells that had previously been activated against adenovirus were reactivated. And now on top of all the existing variation, the body produces lots of copies of those B cells and introduces little mutations to maybe find an even better antibody.

                          Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                          Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                          Kai Kupferschmidt
                          wrote last edited by
                          #12

                          (Sorry, I'm realizing this is getting reaaaallly long, but you gotta love the amazing ways that evolution has honed our body's ability to produce so many slightly different molecules to ensure that no matter what microbe nature throws at us we'll be able to produce a matching antibody...)

                          Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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                          • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

                            (Sorry, I'm realizing this is getting reaaaallly long, but you gotta love the amazing ways that evolution has honed our body's ability to produce so many slightly different molecules to ensure that no matter what microbe nature throws at us we'll be able to produce a matching antibody...)

                            Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                            Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                            Kai Kupferschmidt
                            wrote last edited by
                            #13

                            Amongst the B cells being reactivated were B cells that produced antibodies recognizing a particular protein of the adenovirus called pVII.
                            And in some people, who had one of those two cards I mentioned, so IGLV3-21*02 or IGLV3-21*3, one tiny change flipped what these antibodies recognize.

                            Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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                            • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

                              Amongst the B cells being reactivated were B cells that produced antibodies recognizing a particular protein of the adenovirus called pVII.
                              And in some people, who had one of those two cards I mentioned, so IGLV3-21*02 or IGLV3-21*3, one tiny change flipped what these antibodies recognize.

                              Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                              Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                              Kai Kupferschmidt
                              wrote last edited by
                              #14

                              These people had a particular antibody that recognized pVII and in the process of generating mutations in B cells a single amino acid at position 31 switched from a lysine (which is positively charged) to either an aspartic acid or a glutamic acid (both of which are negatively charged).

                              Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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                              • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

                                These people had a particular antibody that recognized pVII and in the process of generating mutations in B cells a single amino acid at position 31 switched from a lysine (which is positively charged) to either an aspartic acid or a glutamic acid (both of which are negatively charged).

                                Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                                Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                                Kai Kupferschmidt
                                wrote last edited by
                                #15

                                This tiny shift changed what the antibody binds to and suddenly it was not binding to pVII but do PF4, an important protein in our blood clotting system. That led to complexes forming of antibodies with PF4 and those complexes activate platelets (thrombocytes) that then release more PF4. And so on.

                                Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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                                • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

                                  This tiny shift changed what the antibody binds to and suddenly it was not binding to pVII but do PF4, an important protein in our blood clotting system. That led to complexes forming of antibodies with PF4 and those complexes activate platelets (thrombocytes) that then release more PF4. And so on.

                                  Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Kai Kupferschmidt
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #16

                                  The result is both blood clotting and the depletion of platelets that are needed to stop bleeding elsewhere leading to the really striking symptoms that patients with this rare side effect showed.
                                  In our story we simplified the NEJM graphic a little to show what happens.

                                  Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

                                    The result is both blood clotting and the depletion of platelets that are needed to stop bleeding elsewhere leading to the really striking symptoms that patients with this rare side effect showed.
                                    In our story we simplified the NEJM graphic a little to show what happens.

                                    Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Kai Kupferschmidt
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #17

                                    The good news (apart from this thread almost being done):
                                    There is an easy treatment. Doctors can give IVIG (intravenous immunoglobulin). All that means is injecting the patients with other antibodies, essentially flooding their system with a mix of antibodies.

                                    Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

                                      The good news (apart from this thread almost being done):
                                      There is an easy treatment. Doctors can give IVIG (intravenous immunoglobulin). All that means is injecting the patients with other antibodies, essentially flooding their system with a mix of antibodies.

                                      Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                                      Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                                      Kai Kupferschmidt
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #18

                                      The reason that works? Platelets are activated when the antibodies that are in complexes with PF4 bind to the platelets. But when there are lots of other antibodies that already occupy the binding sites on the platelets then the complexes cannot bind and the platelets are not activated.

                                      Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

                                        The reason that works? Platelets are activated when the antibodies that are in complexes with PF4 bind to the platelets. But when there are lots of other antibodies that already occupy the binding sites on the platelets then the complexes cannot bind and the platelets are not activated.

                                        Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Kai Kupferschmidt
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #19

                                        It's a little like an asshole billionaire buying up all the houses in his neighborhood so no-one can move in who might aggravate him. Only when doctors do it for our immune system it saves lives...

                                        Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • Kai KupferschmidtK Kai Kupferschmidt

                                          It's a little like an asshole billionaire buying up all the houses in his neighborhood so no-one can move in who might aggravate him. Only when doctors do it for our immune system it saves lives...

                                          Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Kai KupferschmidtK This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Kai Kupferschmidt
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #20

                                          All of this explains why VITT was so rare and why it could not be picked up in the trials. A lot of things had to come together. The right kind of genetic background with the right kind of antibody and at the end one particular mutation.
                                          There may be other factors too that we don't understand yet.

                                          Kai KupferschmidtK 1 Reply Last reply
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