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  3. A few days ago I posted, "you may have had your anger stolen from you as a child.

A few days ago I posted, "you may have had your anger stolen from you as a child.

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  • The FrogL The Frog

    @artemis

    We have old survival reflexes that were useful shortly after our ancestors started to dwell on land, but are a bother, without killing us, in a social animal.

    Plus, natural selection acts both at the individual and group level. A behaviour benefiting the individual in the group (selfishness) will doom the group of there's too much of it. Altruism, cooperation, empathy all make groups stronger.

    The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
    The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
    The Frog
    wrote last edited by
    #33

    @artemis

    Humans have the capacity to learn, which is adapting their behaviour and reasoning to certain given situations. Some better than others. And the reasons for it is neurology (imagine ALL the factors affecting neurology, I'm thinking ASD and ADHD) or experience (one cannot learn stuff they've never been exposed to, or the conditions of learning), or even a learning useful in one situation but detrimental in another.

    - Everything has a cause -

    The FrogL 1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • The FrogL The Frog

      @artemis

      Humans have the capacity to learn, which is adapting their behaviour and reasoning to certain given situations. Some better than others. And the reasons for it is neurology (imagine ALL the factors affecting neurology, I'm thinking ASD and ADHD) or experience (one cannot learn stuff they've never been exposed to, or the conditions of learning), or even a learning useful in one situation but detrimental in another.

      - Everything has a cause -

      The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
      The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
      The Frog
      wrote last edited by
      #34

      @artemis

      To be continued later

      The FrogL 1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • ArtemisA Artemis

        @lritter
        I hear you, & I do relate. For me, that feeling of loss of control is why I want to become more acquainted with & comfortable with it, because I feel like I'm inexperienced with healthy anger. The only time I let myself feel anger is in those moments where it feels wild & out of control.

        I'm hopeful that I can become better "friends" with it. When I am feeling sad, I'm able to sit & try to understand myself. When I feel angry, I try to shut it off, & I don't think it's serving me

        NilaJonesN This user is from outside of this forum
        NilaJonesN This user is from outside of this forum
        NilaJones
        wrote last edited by
        #35

        @artemis @lritter

        Losing control is not an inherent part of anger. It's what happens when you mix anger with dissociation, checking out

        You can learn how to be present when you are angry, so that you are 100% in control, and also feeling the anger

        It might be easiest to do this by starting with noticing when you are just a little bit angry -- also known as irritated, annoyed, bothered -- and being present with that small amount of anger

        LRL 1 Reply Last reply
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        • NilaJonesN NilaJones

          @artemis @lritter

          Losing control is not an inherent part of anger. It's what happens when you mix anger with dissociation, checking out

          You can learn how to be present when you are angry, so that you are 100% in control, and also feeling the anger

          It might be easiest to do this by starting with noticing when you are just a little bit angry -- also known as irritated, annoyed, bothered -- and being present with that small amount of anger

          LRL This user is from outside of this forum
          LRL This user is from outside of this forum
          LR
          wrote last edited by
          #36

          @NilaJones @artemis true.

          anger wise i am a closed hihat. little bit of steam. no crashing.

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          • ArtemisA Artemis

            @urbanfoxe
            I am such a huge fan of things that help kids recognize & understand their emotional experience. Learning that from a young age is transformational.

            NilaJonesN This user is from outside of this forum
            NilaJonesN This user is from outside of this forum
            NilaJones
            wrote last edited by
            #37

            @artemis @urbanfoxe

            Yes!

            It meant the world to me when I was a kid and I would be feeling something, and my mom would put a name on it

            It was wonderful to be understood, and to know that what I was feeling was something that everybody experiences. That's why there's a word for it!

            1 Reply Last reply
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            • ArtemisA Artemis

              A few days ago I posted, "you may have had your anger stolen from you as a child. If so, you should find it & get it back."

              I'm entirely serious about that. A lot of us were trained as kids that the people in charge of us could be angry, but we needed to be quiet & submissive in the face of "authority".

              No. Your anger is yours. Your anger is powerful. Find it. Harness it. Direct it.

              It was taken from you because it gives you power.

              Games People PlayG This user is from outside of this forum
              Games People PlayG This user is from outside of this forum
              Games People Play
              wrote last edited by
              #38

              @artemis "Angry is good. Angry gets shit done." (let's not throw out the baby with the bath water).

              1 Reply Last reply
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              • ArtemisA Artemis

                So it's now my job as an adult to figure out what a healthy relationship to anger would actually look like.

                ity [unit X-69] - VIOLENT FUCKI This user is from outside of this forum
                ity [unit X-69] - VIOLENT FUCKI This user is from outside of this forum
                ity [unit X-69] - VIOLENT FUCK
                wrote last edited by
                #39

                @artemis I wanna murder those that abused me does that count as a healthy relationship to anger

                ity [unit X-69] - VIOLENT FUCKI 1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • ity [unit X-69] - VIOLENT FUCKI ity [unit X-69] - VIOLENT FUCK

                  @artemis I wanna murder those that abused me does that count as a healthy relationship to anger

                  ity [unit X-69] - VIOLENT FUCKI This user is from outside of this forum
                  ity [unit X-69] - VIOLENT FUCKI This user is from outside of this forum
                  ity [unit X-69] - VIOLENT FUCK
                  wrote last edited by
                  #40

                  @artemis I get really pissed when someone I care about is hurt, and wanna murder those that abused those I love

                  I don't care about hearing the side of the story of those that abused someone I care about when I get to witness the consequences of it. I will beat the hell out of them if I ever see them. There's no justification for knowingly giving someone PTSD.

                  Is that healthy

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                  • The FrogL The Frog

                    @artemis

                    To be continued later

                    The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                    The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                    The Frog
                    wrote last edited by
                    #41

                    @artemis

                    Riiight.

                    Anger is an emotion. We have no direct control on emotions, they're reflexes, reactions, to events (no, yoga master, fuck off, we CAN'T. Oh, you say you can? After how many decades of rigorous training?).

                    What makes us angry is when
                    - Other people step on our boundaries or hurt us.
                    - When other people or things don't act according to our preconceived ideal.
                    - It's worse when it's sudden, unexpected and in the midst of confusion.

                    The FrogL 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • The FrogL The Frog

                      @artemis

                      Riiight.

                      Anger is an emotion. We have no direct control on emotions, they're reflexes, reactions, to events (no, yoga master, fuck off, we CAN'T. Oh, you say you can? After how many decades of rigorous training?).

                      What makes us angry is when
                      - Other people step on our boundaries or hurt us.
                      - When other people or things don't act according to our preconceived ideal.
                      - It's worse when it's sudden, unexpected and in the midst of confusion.

                      The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                      The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                      The Frog
                      wrote last edited by
                      #42

                      @artemis

                      Anger exists because it's useful for evolution. At the individual level because it helps fulfilling one's needs, keeping would competitors away. At the group level because it helps all individuals to sort of keep each other's boundaries and setting theirs. Outwards signs of anger were essential before language.

                      But evolution isn't tending towards optimal conditions, just survival. So the more angry individual gets more resources for themselves...

                      The FrogL 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • The FrogL The Frog

                        @artemis

                        Anger exists because it's useful for evolution. At the individual level because it helps fulfilling one's needs, keeping would competitors away. At the group level because it helps all individuals to sort of keep each other's boundaries and setting theirs. Outwards signs of anger were essential before language.

                        But evolution isn't tending towards optimal conditions, just survival. So the more angry individual gets more resources for themselves...

                        The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                        The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                        The Frog
                        wrote last edited by
                        #43

                        @artemis

                        But if this one individual's anger is out of control, or if all individuals are angry too easily, the survival of the group is threatened, and the group won't survive. Or this animal will evolve to become solitary... think most cats, big and small, and polar bears, which is better for predators where there's a scarcity of food.

                        But let's stick to humans. Some angry ones gets more resources (good on them) but threatens the group (fuck 'em). Why They're like this?

                        The FrogL 1 Reply Last reply
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                        • The FrogL The Frog

                          @artemis

                          But if this one individual's anger is out of control, or if all individuals are angry too easily, the survival of the group is threatened, and the group won't survive. Or this animal will evolve to become solitary... think most cats, big and small, and polar bears, which is better for predators where there's a scarcity of food.

                          But let's stick to humans. Some angry ones gets more resources (good on them) but threatens the group (fuck 'em). Why They're like this?

                          The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                          The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                          The Frog
                          wrote last edited by
                          #44

                          @artemis

                          Remember: either neurology or experience. They were sort of born this way, in a normal setting with enough of what they needed, but the anger trigger much more sensitive than needed. Or lived in a shitty economic or social context where what they needed was scarce and anger meant survival. Or even encouraged because it made them rich because they were coming from a materially rich, socially poor context.

                          The FrogL 1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • The FrogL The Frog

                            @artemis

                            Remember: either neurology or experience. They were sort of born this way, in a normal setting with enough of what they needed, but the anger trigger much more sensitive than needed. Or lived in a shitty economic or social context where what they needed was scarce and anger meant survival. Or even encouraged because it made them rich because they were coming from a materially rich, socially poor context.

                            The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                            The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                            The Frog
                            wrote last edited by
                            #45

                            @artemis

                            And that's where "controlling" anger (outwards signs of anger, because anger cannot be controlled) becomes significant. And not all measures of control are equal.

                            So people try to control/suppress anger in others either because they want to keep power over them (since anger is a reflex to protect one's boundaries, which is bad news for those outstepping them), or because they fear they'll become angry pricks who will take over and monopolise resources, becoming a threat to the group.

                            The FrogL 1 Reply Last reply
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                            • The FrogL The Frog

                              @artemis

                              And that's where "controlling" anger (outwards signs of anger, because anger cannot be controlled) becomes significant. And not all measures of control are equal.

                              So people try to control/suppress anger in others either because they want to keep power over them (since anger is a reflex to protect one's boundaries, which is bad news for those outstepping them), or because they fear they'll become angry pricks who will take over and monopolise resources, becoming a threat to the group.

                              The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                              The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                              The Frog
                              wrote last edited by
                              #46

                              @artemis

                              Without any understanding of neurodiversity and psychology, the latter well intentioned tendecy of controlling anger in others is blunt as fuck.

                              But psychology and understanding of neurodiversity happened an eye blink ago in the timeline of human evolution. Controlling anger with anger has been the norm. It kinds of work to keep social cohesion, although imperfectly. Evolution doesn't tend towards optimal conditions and people cannot know what they haven't had the chance to learn.

                              The FrogL 1 Reply Last reply
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                              • The FrogL The Frog

                                @artemis

                                Without any understanding of neurodiversity and psychology, the latter well intentioned tendecy of controlling anger in others is blunt as fuck.

                                But psychology and understanding of neurodiversity happened an eye blink ago in the timeline of human evolution. Controlling anger with anger has been the norm. It kinds of work to keep social cohesion, although imperfectly. Evolution doesn't tend towards optimal conditions and people cannot know what they haven't had the chance to learn.

                                The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                                The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                                The Frog
                                wrote last edited by
                                #47

                                @artemis

                                But another source of anger is when reality doesn't match preconceived ideas. That's when one gets angry at their computer when it glitches, or when something isn't where it should be.

                                That's the most dangerous form of anger, yet the easiest one to control, if one is willing to.

                                We all have in our mind an idea of how things *should* be. This is usually learnt (through exposition to patterns, observation, reflexion, teaching).

                                The FrogL 1 Reply Last reply
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                                • The FrogL The Frog

                                  @artemis

                                  But another source of anger is when reality doesn't match preconceived ideas. That's when one gets angry at their computer when it glitches, or when something isn't where it should be.

                                  That's the most dangerous form of anger, yet the easiest one to control, if one is willing to.

                                  We all have in our mind an idea of how things *should* be. This is usually learnt (through exposition to patterns, observation, reflexion, teaching).

                                  The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                                  The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                                  The Frog
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #48

                                  @artemis

                                  Nothing makes me more angry than when my teenage son answers rudely. Why? Because he's not usually rude. Because I don't expect the topic of discussion to trigger a rude reaction.

                                  So when things don't match my expectations -> anger.

                                  If i ask him though to do his homework, I expect pushback. If he answers rudely in this context it doesn't make me angry.

                                  Things match my expectations -> no anger.

                                  The FrogL 1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • The FrogL The Frog

                                    @artemis

                                    Nothing makes me more angry than when my teenage son answers rudely. Why? Because he's not usually rude. Because I don't expect the topic of discussion to trigger a rude reaction.

                                    So when things don't match my expectations -> anger.

                                    If i ask him though to do his homework, I expect pushback. If he answers rudely in this context it doesn't make me angry.

                                    Things match my expectations -> no anger.

                                    The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                                    The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                                    The Frog
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #49

                                    @artemis

                                    Okay, need to wrap this somehow...

                                    One must ALWAYS AT ALL TIME make the effort to understand what is going on, why things are the way they are. Being aware that there's a long chain of cause and effects leading to how things are right now, even if you cannot understand all the links. Knowing it's there is often good enough (being WOKE).

                                    One must ALWAYS AT ALL TIME look at their preconceived ideas and stick to them if they're good, ditch them if they're not (Being WISE).

                                    The FrogL 1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • The FrogL The Frog

                                      @artemis

                                      Okay, need to wrap this somehow...

                                      One must ALWAYS AT ALL TIME make the effort to understand what is going on, why things are the way they are. Being aware that there's a long chain of cause and effects leading to how things are right now, even if you cannot understand all the links. Knowing it's there is often good enough (being WOKE).

                                      One must ALWAYS AT ALL TIME look at their preconceived ideas and stick to them if they're good, ditch them if they're not (Being WISE).

                                      The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                                      The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                                      The Frog
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #50

                                      @artemis

                                      If one is woke and wise (*tending* to be woke and wise: remember, we all have limits in our knowledge and our capacity to reason), the anger arising from things not aligning with our preconceived ideas will not be "controlled", it will stop existing when it is not justified, less burning when it *is* justified because the element of confusion is removed.

                                      This allows breathing room to act more efficiently and rationally.

                                      The FrogL 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • The FrogL The Frog

                                        @artemis

                                        If one is woke and wise (*tending* to be woke and wise: remember, we all have limits in our knowledge and our capacity to reason), the anger arising from things not aligning with our preconceived ideas will not be "controlled", it will stop existing when it is not justified, less burning when it *is* justified because the element of confusion is removed.

                                        This allows breathing room to act more efficiently and rationally.

                                        The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                                        The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                                        The Frog
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #51

                                        @artemis

                                        Anger, when we remove confusion, becomes useful in unfairness, calling for action.

                                        Why it makes me angry?
                                        - A small group puts me or other in danger and I care about other people because I have empathy

                                        Why it happens?
                                        - The people doing it were radicalised and were taught to devalue empathy. Some didn't have the neurological capacity for empathy in the first place.

                                        What can I do?
                                        - [insert many actions taking into account your situation, strengths, weaknesses skills and resources]

                                        The FrogL 1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • The FrogL The Frog

                                          @artemis

                                          Anger, when we remove confusion, becomes useful in unfairness, calling for action.

                                          Why it makes me angry?
                                          - A small group puts me or other in danger and I care about other people because I have empathy

                                          Why it happens?
                                          - The people doing it were radicalised and were taught to devalue empathy. Some didn't have the neurological capacity for empathy in the first place.

                                          What can I do?
                                          - [insert many actions taking into account your situation, strengths, weaknesses skills and resources]

                                          The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                                          The FrogL This user is from outside of this forum
                                          The Frog
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #52

                                          @artemis

                                          Back to the "reflex" type of anger.
                                          There's the question of control of outwards signs in oneself and in others (say your kids or schoolkids when you're a teacher). Suppressing it or not?

                                          What anger is for? It's a crude instrument from before language to protect boundaries. In this case one must acknowledge it while training oneself to be more efficient at expressing themselves in making other respect those boundaries, or teach kids those skills. It doesn't supress anger, it redirects

                                          The FrogL 1 Reply Last reply
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