Jack Dorsey skipped ActivityPub, built AtProto, lost Twitter, funded Bluesky, watched it become a company with VCs and a board, said it was "repeating all the mistakes," left, and now funds Nostr.

@mastodonmigration @skarnio @baralheia AT Protocol doesn't exhibit quadratic scaling in practice.

You can configure any network in its least optimal form and therefore create inefficiencies.

It's just like AT Protocol's properties applied to ActivityPub create some really weird outcomes. Trying to deploy AT Protocol as you would ActivityPub is ignoring the fact that these protocols have different network topologies.

We can find ways that AP, too, performs horribly.

@thisismissem @mastodonmigration @baralheia Great. Our main problem isn't technology, but politics... the more independent we can be from corporations, the better. I'll look into this information. Thank you!

@thisismissem @mastodonmigration @baralheia My analysis assumes a network architecture in which each node is a major participant in the functionality of the network, because as I argue in the piece, from a power distribution perspective of decentralization, it is important. What I describe in the piece is that if you want more than a pantheon of gods-eye view participants, then not having addressed delivery means that the system can't scale down.

And this is true: you can run a gotosocial node that isn't *dependent* on other major players in the network, and it scales down great.

The question is whether or not that matters and is important to people. Maybe it doesn't, I don't know. It matters to me, though.

@cwebber @thisismissem @baralheia

"...not having addressed delivery means that the system can't scale down"

Getting back to the subject of 'quadratic scaling', unless completely missing the point, which is very possible, this seems to be the crux of the matter. There needs to be a mechanism for independent elements to 'see' everything. If that mechanism scales relative to the total network, you have quadratic scaling. If it scales relative to the element size you have linear scaling.

@dansup @quillmatiq

If ATProto can overcome its origins and single point of failure, great.

But it's gross to gaslight ActivityPub developers that those origins don't exist and it never happened, and don't talk about them when strangers are watching.

@mastodonmigration @cwebber @baralheia I could build an application that tracks just its users, doesn't use a relay, doesn't have a full-network view, and talks directly to PDSes. That's possible in AT Protocol's architecture. It's just not the main way people do things because it comes with trade-offs, just as message passing comes with its own trade-offs.

@dansup Nostr is a good idea, unfortunately nobody is talking to each other and everyone wants funding from the same wallet.

@thisismissem @cwebber @baralheia

Sure, but that's not a decentralized global social network. Again, recognizing that there are many things that AT Proto excels at, and that message passing has its own problems, the subject at hand is how independent nodes scale.

The reason for this focus is that networks that scale linearly as they go wide are inherently easier to scale wide, and therefore better are distributing power across the network.

@mastodonmigration @cwebber @baralheia why isn't it? You could each run your own PDS and host your own copy of the app. We could still see everything between us.

tbh, I'm kinda sick of being lectured by a guy who works at Meta on decentralization. Come collect your paycheck from the fediverse, make that work, then you can lecture me about decentralization.

Edit: Also, no mastodon node has a full view of the network. The argument you're making is fundamentally flawed my dude.

@mastodonmigration @cwebber @baralheia why isn't it? You could each run your own PDS and host your own copy of the app. We could still see everything between us.

tbh, I'm kinda sick of being lectured by a guy who works at Meta on decentralization. Come collect your paycheck from the fediverse, make that work, then you can lecture me about decentralization.

Edit: Also, no mastodon node has a full view of the network. The argument you're making is fundamentally flawed my dude.

@timbray @mastodonmigration @baralheia by the time PBC shutsdown, we should be well along the way to standardisation at IETF, and more players in the ecosystem means less importance of one entity.

What would happen if Mastodon gGmbH/Inc disappeared tomorrow? It'd significantly hurt the fediverse too, because of how much of the fediverse is concentrated there.

@thisismissem @mastodonmigration @cwebber is there a list or directory of independent Bluesky relays and AppViews somewhere?

@cy @mastodonmigration @baralheia @thisismissem Nobody at Bluesky worked at Twitter

@thisismissem @mastodonmigration @baralheia The problem is money. It's not cheap to run that network. You have personal experience of how hard it is to squeeze money out for important social-media work. Who's going to pay to keep it on the air?

@baralheia @thisismissem @mastodonmigration relays: I think this is more or less complete: https://compare.hose.cam, though I think it's missing these new ones: https://sri.leaflet.pub/3mddrqk5ays27.

I've recently looked at which of them really cover the whole network, I'm working on setting up a website with live stats on that: https://bsky.app/profile/mackuba.eu/post/3mdhbbocmrc26

AppViews: for Bluesky microblogging I think right now there's only Bluesky's and Blacksky's that are live & public.

@evan @boris @reflex @dansup @quillmatiq will you forgive me cos I asked Gemini: Destroy as suitable. Under dependency challenges, it says:
- Identity Dependency: did:plc directory Bsky owned
- "Centralized Indexing: users can host their own PDS, but rely on "relays" to discover other users. Currently, the main relay is operated by Bky. Replacing this requires significant compute power."
- "Atproto's adoption depends on it having a "killer app" other than the initial microblogging client"

@sheislaurence @evan @boris @reflex @dansup @quillmatiq

the strategy seems pretty clear based on how the protocol works and VC strategies we've seen before. survive and grow via VC until AT is accepted as the open social protocol. till everybody thinks that's the one to build on. have bluesky be to AT what google is to HTTP. an open protocol wasn't enough then either.

I will complain until I see their "unfair" advantage (imo) end and we know how they plan to provide an ROI to their investors.

@wjmaggos @sheislaurence @evan @boris @dansup @quillmatiq That last part especially, they won't even say who their investors are at this point.