To be honest, I would rather live in a less stupid and evil time, if possible

@noodlemaz @donni You might be right. What do you mean? The extreme focus on being thing and largely naked? I'm not sure things have improved on that front.

@donni @KeithWM famous adult men openly doing countdowns re: celebrity girls' 18th birthdays (Charlotte Church for example from the UK)

The constant, flagrant fat-shaming live on television of already slim women

Sexualising of schoolgirls (think I was first catcalled at 11?)and yes, all still happens.
But the sheer in-your-face, bold and unapologetic way men did these things *in public* without challenge? I like to think we have in at least some spheres got past that a bit.

At least we're able to discuss it and look back on the harm it did to us then, and to the direct victims - Britney Spears springs to mind but there were so many more.

Monika in the fat suit. Shallow Hal.
Women's bodies have rarely been under the microscope so intensely, and demanded to be so very small. We were raised to take up as little space as possible. To be weak and tiny.

In our 30s and 40s we're still recovering.

The UK only criminalised marital rape in 93

Also interesting, 'bitchification': https://time.com/5310256/90s-gender-equality-progress/ #feminism

@donni @KeithWM famous adult men openly doing countdowns re: celebrity girls' 18th birthdays (Charlotte Church for example from the UK)

The constant, flagrant fat-shaming live on television of already slim women

Sexualising of schoolgirls (think I was first catcalled at 11?)and yes, all still happens.
But the sheer in-your-face, bold and unapologetic way men did these things *in public* without challenge? I like to think we have in at least some spheres got past that a bit.

At least we're able to discuss it and look back on the harm it did to us then, and to the direct victims - Britney Spears springs to mind but there were so many more.

Monika in the fat suit. Shallow Hal.
Women's bodies have rarely been under the microscope so intensely, and demanded to be so very small. We were raised to take up as little space as possible. To be weak and tiny.

In our 30s and 40s we're still recovering.

The UK only criminalised marital rape in 93

Also interesting, 'bitchification': https://time.com/5310256/90s-gender-equality-progress/ #feminism

To be honest, I would rather live in a less stupid and evil time, if possible

@donni I remember the last shimmers of hope, early 70s.

We knew what needed be done, set out to do that, were thwarted at every turn as the gangs propelling Reagan, Thatcher etc. hammered the final nails in our coffin.

@donni @KeithWM famous adult men openly doing countdowns re: celebrity girls' 18th birthdays (Charlotte Church for example from the UK)

The constant, flagrant fat-shaming live on television of already slim women

Sexualising of schoolgirls (think I was first catcalled at 11?)and yes, all still happens.
But the sheer in-your-face, bold and unapologetic way men did these things *in public* without challenge? I like to think we have in at least some spheres got past that a bit.

At least we're able to discuss it and look back on the harm it did to us then, and to the direct victims - Britney Spears springs to mind but there were so many more.

Monika in the fat suit. Shallow Hal.
Women's bodies have rarely been under the microscope so intensely, and demanded to be so very small. We were raised to take up as little space as possible. To be weak and tiny.

In our 30s and 40s we're still recovering.

The UK only criminalised marital rape in 93

Also interesting, 'bitchification': https://time.com/5310256/90s-gender-equality-progress/ #feminism

@noodlemaz @donni Do you think this has improved since then? I sometimes have the impression we're not making much progress. Or at least not society as a hole, even if there are more audible voices speaking up about such matters.

@donni @KeithWM hard to say, I am obviously older and more educated so I feel better able to describe issues, advise younger women etc
But I internalised SO MUCH hatred of fat female bodies, despite knowing factually, rationally it's bullshit and I don't look down at other women, I still have a lot of self-criticism I wish I didn't.
And I resent that, a lot. And that younger women have to deal with it too.

@noodlemaz Always hard to separate your own development from external changes of course. What kind of advice do you give younger women? (I happen to have a younger woman in my house, i.e., my daughter.)

@KeithWM ignore boys/men.

Seriously fully ignore them. What they want, what they think.
Build friendships with women. Focus on yourself, caring for yourself, your health, hobbies and friends.
Question why you're told other women are bad, what's bad about them and who it helps if you believe that.

Build strength, take up space, EAT FOOD.
My god, eat food. You need to eat the food. No food is inherently 'bad', morality is not an ingredient.

Secure independence so you can make choices. Freedom to choose is everything.

Learn and have opinions and change them when the evidence demands it.
Use your voice.
Ignore the 'don't be bossy/loud/angry' comments.

@noodlemaz I might regret telling her to ignore me(n).

@KeithWM you're family, that's a bit different. But a lot of us first learned to hate ourselves/women from our dads, too. Since you asked that's at least probably not the case for her.

I watched my dad belittle, ignore and take my mother and her work for granted my whole life, til he died early for various reasons, mostly self-inflicted.
I watched him walk away from her as she was in tears of pain.
I will never understand why men take women from the world and make them so small, it's abhorrent.

The more she learns to ignore various men the less likely that'll ever happen to her.

@noodlemaz Sorry to hear that. But I do have to say there's a big difference between talking the talk and walking the walk. I don't always live up to my own standards.

And then I'm not even getting into the whole paradox of objecting to some things my wife and daughter like doing because I think they perpetuate sexist stereotypes. Things like reading fairy tales and spending (too?) much time and effort on how you look.

@noodlemaz Sorry to hear that. But I do have to say there's a big difference between talking the talk and walking the walk. I don't always live up to my own standards.

And then I'm not even getting into the whole paradox of objecting to some things my wife and daughter like doing because I think they perpetuate sexist stereotypes. Things like reading fairy tales and spending (too?) much time and effort on how you look.

To be honest, I would rather live in a less stupid and evil time, if possible

@KeithWM I mean you can think it, but you don't have to say it.

The problem is, we're dealing with huge amounts of expectation of our appearance. Out in the world, at work, even just on the street.
So yes, even though it's work and can be expensive, it can be... Smoother, to go along with some of those.

And it's less arduous if you enjoy it. Makeup etc is also self-expression. Current masculinity robbing men of the chance to express themselves with colours and other appearance-modifications isn't women's fault. Try painting your nails sometimes, it's great.

@noodlemaz I've probably just internalized stuff, but I don't want to paint my nails.