I gave Codex a try.
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@helge @iamkonstantin Resource consumption seems to be okay. SwiftUI apps on macOS are worse. (just click a bit around in NavigationStack and let it bloat up)
Standards control is a low bar since really only a minority cares about it.
It's a good app and puts native apps made with the latest stack to shame. No denying it.
@obrhoff @iamkonstantin Resource consumption is at least 10x what a native binary would be, that’s just inherit in the tech. In part because every single Electron app carries the whole stack, it’s truly a conceptual train wreck.
I completely disagree that people don’t care about consistency and integration. But
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Was just answering where the hate comes from, and I think that’s absolutely warranted. In terms of Codex (or Slack which is also a „good“ app), they would be much better as native apps. -
@obrhoff @iamkonstantin Resource consumption is at least 10x what a native binary would be, that’s just inherit in the tech. In part because every single Electron app carries the whole stack, it’s truly a conceptual train wreck.
I completely disagree that people don’t care about consistency and integration. But️
Was just answering where the hate comes from, and I think that’s absolutely warranted. In terms of Codex (or Slack which is also a „good“ app), they would be much better as native apps.@helge @obrhoff Every stack has trade-offs - not disputing that. I was just wondering why so often this conversation devolves into hate and absolutism. You say Slack, Codex, Signal and others may be better as native apps but perhaps it doesn't matter to them to be native apps because don't endeavour to be a showcase of Apple's HIG for example. In fact, I believe Signal has a much better experience on macOS than say the "flagship" iMessage client. I wish we see apps in function of their purpose
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@obrhoff @iamkonstantin Resource consumption is at least 10x what a native binary would be, that’s just inherit in the tech. In part because every single Electron app carries the whole stack, it’s truly a conceptual train wreck.
I completely disagree that people don’t care about consistency and integration. But️
Was just answering where the hate comes from, and I think that’s absolutely warranted. In terms of Codex (or Slack which is also a „good“ app), they would be much better as native apps.@helge @iamkonstantin A native app is not necessarily a better app. We've seen dumpster fire on both sides. Probably comes down to engineering talent.
I think OpenAI apps are a good benchmark. The ChatGPT is made in SwiftUI (afaik) and Codex in Electron. It's a good comparison within the same org.
SwiftUI is now 7 years old and on macOS there is still a ton of broken stuff. Should we give it another 7 years or what.
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@helge @obrhoff Every stack has trade-offs - not disputing that. I was just wondering why so often this conversation devolves into hate and absolutism. You say Slack, Codex, Signal and others may be better as native apps but perhaps it doesn't matter to them to be native apps because don't endeavour to be a showcase of Apple's HIG for example. In fact, I believe Signal has a much better experience on macOS than say the "flagship" iMessage client. I wish we see apps in function of their purpose
@iamkonstantin @obrhoff I’m not disputing that people have different opinions on what makes a good system
I do value efficient systems with consistent design. That’s why I strongly dislike Electron apps, or Catalyst ones, fwiw. -
@helge @iamkonstantin A native app is not necessarily a better app. We've seen dumpster fire on both sides. Probably comes down to engineering talent.
I think OpenAI apps are a good benchmark. The ChatGPT is made in SwiftUI (afaik) and Codex in Electron. It's a good comparison within the same org.
SwiftUI is now 7 years old and on macOS there is still a ton of broken stuff. Should we give it another 7 years or what.
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@iamkonstantin @obrhoff I’m not disputing that people have different opinions on what makes a good system
I do value efficient systems with consistent design. That’s why I strongly dislike Electron apps, or Catalyst ones, fwiw.@helge @iamkonstantin Yeah, I mean I'm the same. I value these things as well, but I also don't want to fall into denialism that other things I don't like are bad.
I mean, it's possible to write a good SwiftUI app, but I also hit the wall and had to pull up custom Navigation Stack, wrap stuff into NSCollectionViews and write things in CoreAnimation to achieve it.
After so many years, this should not be the state. (Now here is my shameless self promotion.
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@iamkonstantin @helge We can only speculate. Looking at how the German automobile industry handled it, I got the feeling it's easy to ignore these problems as long as you make money and your "more" important KPIs are going up.
Up until it's too late and your problems are so fundamentally rooted deep that there is no fixing of it anymore.
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@iamkonstantin @obrhoff @helge I am so late. What is the world moving to now ? I think I am just moving back to the console.
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@helge @iamkonstantin Yeah, I mean I'm the same. I value these things as well, but I also don't want to fall into denialism that other things I don't like are bad.
I mean, it's possible to write a good SwiftUI app, but I also hit the wall and had to pull up custom Navigation Stack, wrap stuff into NSCollectionViews and write things in CoreAnimation to achieve it.
After so many years, this should not be the state. (Now here is my shameless self promotion.
)@obrhoff @iamkonstantin I mean you know my opinion on that. Cocoa is a core part of SwiftUI, or the other way around, SwiftUI is a Cocoa form builder. Useful for certain things.
Either way: SwiftUI is less well understood and certainly has a ton of bugs, but at least it is conceptually sound. -
@obrhoff @iamkonstantin I mean you know my opinion on that. Cocoa is a core part of SwiftUI, or the other way around, SwiftUI is a Cocoa form builder. Useful for certain things.
Either way: SwiftUI is less well understood and certainly has a ton of bugs, but at least it is conceptually sound.@helge @iamkonstantin Yes, but you are also knee-deep in it for 30 years and have made several technological transitions over the decades.
Looks at it from someone else’s perspective who looks from outside. Why should you know 3 different UI frameworks to achieve a good product experience?
I don't think it’s a conceptual question about the Framework. It’s about judging the final results of all these efforts after 7 years.
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@iamkonstantin @obrhoff @helge I am so late. What is the world moving to now ? I think I am just moving back to the console.
@santi @obrhoff @helge Oh yes, TUIs ftw
Have you seen https://ratatui.rs ? It's soo delicious-looking.. and technically futuristic - most of Star Trek's LCARS always felt like a TUI
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@santi @obrhoff @helge Oh yes, TUIs ftw
Have you seen https://ratatui.rs ? It's soo delicious-looking.. and technically futuristic - most of Star Trek's LCARS always felt like a TUI@iamkonstantin @obrhoff @helge It’s one of the many many things in my infinite todo list !
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@helge @iamkonstantin A native app is not necessarily a better app. We've seen dumpster fire on both sides. Probably comes down to engineering talent.
I think OpenAI apps are a good benchmark. The ChatGPT is made in SwiftUI (afaik) and Codex in Electron. It's a good comparison within the same org.
SwiftUI is now 7 years old and on macOS there is still a ton of broken stuff. Should we give it another 7 years or what.
@obrhoff @helge @iamkonstantin erm, just because Apple turned into incompetent blob that can't do anything sensible (or optimised), we shouldn't jump on the badwagon of: "look, this bloated webapp is not as crappy as apple"
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@helge @iamkonstantin A native app is not necessarily a better app. We've seen dumpster fire on both sides. Probably comes down to engineering talent.
I think OpenAI apps are a good benchmark. The ChatGPT is made in SwiftUI (afaik) and Codex in Electron. It's a good comparison within the same org.
SwiftUI is now 7 years old and on macOS there is still a ton of broken stuff. Should we give it another 7 years or what.
@obrhoff @iamkonstantin It’s almost funny how the slob apps are used as good examples here
Vibe coders are like the perfect match for Electron apps. They share so many aspects, planetary scale waste of resources and accepted lack of attention/detail. -
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