I’m seeing people start to take interest in ICE subpoenas.
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I’m seeing people start to take interest in ICE subpoenas. They are understandably new to many of you. But I used to respond to subpoenas in my old job, and would occasionally receive an ICE subpoena.
The first time I got one, I remember thinking “huh. I didn’t realize DHS had an independent subpoena power.” So I went and looked up the enacting statute. *Like any lawyer in my position is supposed to do!*
and I figured out pretty quickly that the subpoenas requested information that was waaaaay beyond the scope of enacting statute which permits them to be used *only* to obtain information “relating to the privilege of any person to enter, reenter, reside in, or pass through the United States or concerning any matter which is material and relevant to the enforcement of this chapter.” 8 U.S. Code § 1225(d).
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I’m seeing people start to take interest in ICE subpoenas. They are understandably new to many of you. But I used to respond to subpoenas in my old job, and would occasionally receive an ICE subpoena.
The first time I got one, I remember thinking “huh. I didn’t realize DHS had an independent subpoena power.” So I went and looked up the enacting statute. *Like any lawyer in my position is supposed to do!*
and I figured out pretty quickly that the subpoenas requested information that was waaaaay beyond the scope of enacting statute which permits them to be used *only* to obtain information “relating to the privilege of any person to enter, reenter, reside in, or pass through the United States or concerning any matter which is material and relevant to the enforcement of this chapter.” 8 U.S. Code § 1225(d).
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and as many people have pointed out already, ICE subpoenas are not self-executing: if you refuse to answer, they have to go ask the local AUSA or US district court judge to issue a second subpoena, which then can be opposed and objected to in court. 8 CFR § 287.4(d). and we’ve all seen how well they do when they have to show up in an actual grown up court.
so when I would get one, I would call back the requesting agent, (politely) point this out to him and send him packing to go talk to his AUSA. and then I would never hear from him again.
now… I know they’re being way more aggressive now. But if you tell me that Meta, Google, and Reddit don’t have resources to oppose them in court, when I, a single litigation attorney working for a small company, did… well, that’s less about “can’t” and more about “don’t want to.”
(None of this has been legal advice and I am not your lawyer.)
/end
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I’m seeing people start to take interest in ICE subpoenas. They are understandably new to many of you. But I used to respond to subpoenas in my old job, and would occasionally receive an ICE subpoena.
The first time I got one, I remember thinking “huh. I didn’t realize DHS had an independent subpoena power.” So I went and looked up the enacting statute. *Like any lawyer in my position is supposed to do!*
and I figured out pretty quickly that the subpoenas requested information that was waaaaay beyond the scope of enacting statute which permits them to be used *only* to obtain information “relating to the privilege of any person to enter, reenter, reside in, or pass through the United States or concerning any matter which is material and relevant to the enforcement of this chapter.” 8 U.S. Code § 1225(d).
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@eniatitova so in other words https://urusai.social/@sayonaraminasan/116071181282193656
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R ActivityRelay shared this topic
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and as many people have pointed out already, ICE subpoenas are not self-executing: if you refuse to answer, they have to go ask the local AUSA or US district court judge to issue a second subpoena, which then can be opposed and objected to in court. 8 CFR § 287.4(d). and we’ve all seen how well they do when they have to show up in an actual grown up court.
so when I would get one, I would call back the requesting agent, (politely) point this out to him and send him packing to go talk to his AUSA. and then I would never hear from him again.
now… I know they’re being way more aggressive now. But if you tell me that Meta, Google, and Reddit don’t have resources to oppose them in court, when I, a single litigation attorney working for a small company, did… well, that’s less about “can’t” and more about “don’t want to.”
(None of this has been legal advice and I am not your lawyer.)
/end
@eniatitova@sfba.social or big tech is just “happy to”
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I’m seeing people start to take interest in ICE subpoenas. They are understandably new to many of you. But I used to respond to subpoenas in my old job, and would occasionally receive an ICE subpoena.
The first time I got one, I remember thinking “huh. I didn’t realize DHS had an independent subpoena power.” So I went and looked up the enacting statute. *Like any lawyer in my position is supposed to do!*
and I figured out pretty quickly that the subpoenas requested information that was waaaaay beyond the scope of enacting statute which permits them to be used *only* to obtain information “relating to the privilege of any person to enter, reenter, reside in, or pass through the United States or concerning any matter which is material and relevant to the enforcement of this chapter.” 8 U.S. Code § 1225(d).
1/
@eniatitova @kateiacy yes. This is why none of us should comply in advance. Least of all tech companies with all the keys to each of their users' castles.
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and as many people have pointed out already, ICE subpoenas are not self-executing: if you refuse to answer, they have to go ask the local AUSA or US district court judge to issue a second subpoena, which then can be opposed and objected to in court. 8 CFR § 287.4(d). and we’ve all seen how well they do when they have to show up in an actual grown up court.
so when I would get one, I would call back the requesting agent, (politely) point this out to him and send him packing to go talk to his AUSA. and then I would never hear from him again.
now… I know they’re being way more aggressive now. But if you tell me that Meta, Google, and Reddit don’t have resources to oppose them in court, when I, a single litigation attorney working for a small company, did… well, that’s less about “can’t” and more about “don’t want to.”
(None of this has been legal advice and I am not your lawyer.)
/end
@eniatitova Yes, most of these companies have huge in-house legal departments and it effectively costs them nothing to take a maximalist approach to fighting requests for customer data. Instead they've bent over for the Trump regime and betrayed their customer base in countless ways when there was no legal reason for them to do so. They have shown themselves to be active participants in the overall machinery of this nascent regime. They've made their choice. Now it's up to users to make theirs.
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and as many people have pointed out already, ICE subpoenas are not self-executing: if you refuse to answer, they have to go ask the local AUSA or US district court judge to issue a second subpoena, which then can be opposed and objected to in court. 8 CFR § 287.4(d). and we’ve all seen how well they do when they have to show up in an actual grown up court.
so when I would get one, I would call back the requesting agent, (politely) point this out to him and send him packing to go talk to his AUSA. and then I would never hear from him again.
now… I know they’re being way more aggressive now. But if you tell me that Meta, Google, and Reddit don’t have resources to oppose them in court, when I, a single litigation attorney working for a small company, did… well, that’s less about “can’t” and more about “don’t want to.”
(None of this has been legal advice and I am not your lawyer.)
/end
Clearly this is less about not wanting to and more about wanting to curry favor. These companies all have contracts or disputes -- or both -- before the US government, and they wish to be treated favorably.
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and as many people have pointed out already, ICE subpoenas are not self-executing: if you refuse to answer, they have to go ask the local AUSA or US district court judge to issue a second subpoena, which then can be opposed and objected to in court. 8 CFR § 287.4(d). and we’ve all seen how well they do when they have to show up in an actual grown up court.
so when I would get one, I would call back the requesting agent, (politely) point this out to him and send him packing to go talk to his AUSA. and then I would never hear from him again.
now… I know they’re being way more aggressive now. But if you tell me that Meta, Google, and Reddit don’t have resources to oppose them in court, when I, a single litigation attorney working for a small company, did… well, that’s less about “can’t” and more about “don’t want to.”
(None of this has been legal advice and I am not your lawyer.)
/end
@eniatitova EXODUS NOW
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@eniatitova @kateiacy yes. This is why none of us should comply in advance. Least of all tech companies with all the keys to each of their users' castles.
Tech companies are all on the side of fascism unfortunately.
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and as many people have pointed out already, ICE subpoenas are not self-executing: if you refuse to answer, they have to go ask the local AUSA or US district court judge to issue a second subpoena, which then can be opposed and objected to in court. 8 CFR § 287.4(d). and we’ve all seen how well they do when they have to show up in an actual grown up court.
so when I would get one, I would call back the requesting agent, (politely) point this out to him and send him packing to go talk to his AUSA. and then I would never hear from him again.
now… I know they’re being way more aggressive now. But if you tell me that Meta, Google, and Reddit don’t have resources to oppose them in court, when I, a single litigation attorney working for a small company, did… well, that’s less about “can’t” and more about “don’t want to.”
(None of this has been legal advice and I am not your lawyer.)
/end
@eniatitova the first response to the fascist demands of the government is Fuck you, make me", and watch them melt down when they dont get instant compliance, because they are weak inside
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J Jeri Dansky shared this topic
