Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.

@firefoxwebdevs

I think the challenge with everything going on here is one of clarity.

@sil, you are asking them about disclosure of models and sourcing. But that is far from the only AI that is in the system.

The tool that does grammar checking and language identification does not leverage an LLM, and while there may be some type of model underneath, the context is very different. Tools that detect spam pages or faulty JavaScript that locks the pages, that's another type of AI hard at work.

Is the browser allowed to support speech to text?

@jmax You're calling out that Firefox may not be able to do this, but I think that mischaracterizes the scope of what's happening here.

The browser has several types of non-deterministic, probabilistic tools in it that provide useful services. Now there's a backlash against one very specific version of those non-deterministic, probabilistic tools. But the backlash is vociferous, often unsolvable, and incredibly broad.

It's hard to engage with non-specific anger.

Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.

They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.

Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?

@firefoxwebdevs I mean realistically, we have about:config at home, and y'all are already not respecting that

why the future "KILL SWITCH" carrot? it just comes across like a Musk promise

Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.

They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.

Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?

@gatesvp @firefoxwebdevs @jmax of course there's much "AI" stuff in firefox. I'm assuming that it would all be listed, and all disableable. The CEO promised "a clear way to turn AI features off... A real kill switch" -- if all that other stuff qualifies as "AI", then that means it'll be turn-off-able, no?
I agree that it's hard to engage with non-specific anger; I think the way to add clarity to that conversation is to be specific, about which AI parts are in Moz and where they came from.

@firefoxwebdevs jonah, I hate to break it to you and the LLM shaped like a product manager that’s setting the agenda for your meetings, but the only time I hear about Firefox translations in any context is when Mozilla PMs try to hold it up as an example of an ethical, low-resource, useful AI feature so they can convince to be a fan of the worthless LLM shit they’re actually there to push

the reason why I don’t hear about translations otherwise is simple: it’s shit

@liquor_american @pixel @firefoxwebdevs I suspect the only feedback that’ll get relayed is the feedback from the posters who still kneejerk defend Mozilla as an institution. the rest of us are just too rude to be counted as part of the community (because we use and care deeply about Firefox and hate the entirely avoidable path it’s gone down)

@zzt @firefoxwebdevs there are plenty of users who want to translate stuff in browsers, I am one. To me it seems super reasonable for a product rendering content to also offer translation of it.

fyi you're coming across as very cynical (and I say that as someone who's pretty cynical towards AI hype and the current tech industry myself… I *get* it…)

@tasket if you want a serious discussion about the role translations should or shouldn’t have in a browser, let me refer you to steve: https://hci.social/@fasterandworse/115849566354469222

I don’t really feel anything about the translations feature other than disappointment, a bit of concern over how the data was sourced, and a strong feeling that it shouldn’t be a core browser feature

Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.

They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.

Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?

@zzt @firefoxwebdevs OK, now make the same argument for the spell-checker, sync, and the set of CAs, etc. etc. supplied with the browser. Its as if y'all were trained by Microsoft PR to take the arguments Mozilla used against tying IE to Windows and extend them ad-absurd-um to features in Mozilla's own browser ("just turn it around back in their faces" said the Armani suit).

Meanwhile, Red Hat is quietly undermining any legal basis for copyleft and leaning into the idea that gratis products (Fedora) shouldn't have robust & transparent system update tools. Oh and the umpteen other for-profit controlled (opposite of Mozilla) FOSS projects that get plugged in these spaces pretty much constantly. Linux Foundation being controlled by Microsoft and Google...? crickets chirping.

This is what makes me tired of IT and geek culture. Its become like everything else, just kneejerk crap with zero reflection and sense of proportion. As I hinted above, it morphs into this shadow of corporate PR. Consider, if people spent their time criticizing actual badness in Firefox, like ad tracking and DoH, that would be inconvenient for certain interests from Brave on up to Apple and Google. I think the style and quality of venting we usually see about Mozilla serves those interests, much of it probably fed by sock puppets.

@hdv @firefoxwebdevs thanks for telling me about some software you use and then insulting me!

@firefoxwebdevs I think the best might be to generalize the "yes, but" answer.

Have a set of toggles, one for each feature. Whatever the default state is:

When I (the user) press the TURN OFF AI button or whatever the mechanics are, force them all to (as actively selected) OFF and make the default for any newly added such features also OFF (by implication of the default).

Let me manually toggle a given, specific feature back ON if I want to, *while* keeping the rest including default OFF.

½

Firefox uses on-device downloaded-on-demand ML models for privacy-preserving translation.

They're not LLMs. They're trained on open data.

Should translation be disabled if the AI 'kill switch' is active?

@firefoxwebdevs What do you mean "open data"? https://firefox-source-docs.mozilla.org/toolkit/components/translations/resources/01_overview.html points to https://browser.mt/ points to https://paracrawl.eu/index.php which says "We do not own any of the text from which these data has been extracted."

@firefoxwebdevs jonah, I hate to break it to you and the LLM shaped like a product manager that’s setting the agenda for your meetings, but the only time I hear about Firefox translations in any context is when Mozilla PMs try to hold it up as an example of an ethical, low-resource, useful AI feature so they can convince to be a fan of the worthless LLM shit they’re actually there to push

the reason why I don’t hear about translations otherwise is simple: it’s shit

@zzt @firefoxwebdevs OK, now make the same argument for the spell-checker, sync, and the set of CAs, etc. etc. supplied with the browser. Its as if y'all were trained by Microsoft PR to take the arguments Mozilla used against tying IE to Windows and extend them ad-absurd-um to features in Mozilla's own browser ("just turn it around back in their faces" said the Armani suit).

Meanwhile, Red Hat is quietly undermining any legal basis for copyleft and leaning into the idea that gratis products (Fedora) shouldn't have robust & transparent system update tools. Oh and the umpteen other for-profit controlled (opposite of Mozilla) FOSS projects that get plugged in these spaces pretty much constantly. Linux Foundation being controlled by Microsoft and Google...? crickets chirping.

This is what makes me tired of IT and geek culture. Its become like everything else, just kneejerk crap with zero reflection and sense of proportion. As I hinted above, it morphs into this shadow of corporate PR. Consider, if people spent their time criticizing actual badness in Firefox, like ad tracking and DoH, that would be inconvenient for certain interests from Brave on up to Apple and Google. I think the style and quality of venting we usually see about Mozilla serves those interests, much of it probably fed by sock puppets.

@firefoxwebdevs Because the term "AI" has been so heavily overloaded to include ML, LLMs, Uncle Tom Cobly and all, including the translations in the "AI" kill switch would be signalling to users that their consent is being taken seriously - especially the way that unwanted "AI" is being included so conspicuously in so many tech products at the moment. Ask for consent, don't end up begging for forgiveness on what you see as a technicality.

@firefoxwebdevs an important addendum regarding Firefox translate: by my math (N = my replies), 25% of its users are fucking unhinged

I told them not to use the necronomicon to train the base model but here we fucking are

@zzt @firefoxwebdevs i'll have you know i'm at least 75%* hinged

* vibe estimate, but we carefully graphed it so it's data now