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  3. Bullshit.

Bullshit.

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  • M.S. Bellows, Jr.M M.S. Bellows, Jr.

    @stellarsarah He was the subject of a film about Tourette's that was discussed in the show, and I assume that as a Tourette's activist he was unwilling to mask his neurodivergence just for the polite comfort of others. All of which I'm fine with – it's similar to autistic people refusing to hide their stimming behavior – except (as I've said) racist slurs are different from mere vulgarities, and I fault him and the organizers for not understanding that and balancing his right to be himself against Black people's right to be free from racist slurs.

    ~* SarahS This user is from outside of this forum
    ~* SarahS This user is from outside of this forum
    ~* Sarah
    wrote last edited by
    #78

    @msbellows this isn't just "polite comfort". The man was literally hurling verbal abuse at others. Someone isn't allowed to stim by slapping other people, that man is at the very least incredibly rude by staying in that environment and being an asshole to everyone else.

    M.S. Bellows, Jr.M 1 Reply Last reply
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    • J. R. DePriest :verified_trans: :donor: :Moopsy: :EA DATA. SF:J J. R. DePriest :verified_trans: :donor: :Moopsy: :EA DATA. SF:

      @venitamathias @msbellows

      In addition to yelling the n-word, Davidson could also be heard yelling, “Shut the f--- up,” and “f--- you” during various points in the ceremony.

      From https://people.com/john-davidson-deeply-mortified-n-word-baftas-incident-11912076

      The only direct slur via tic that night was the profoundly racist one.

      The thing white people like me don't understand, don't feel in our gut, is the 250+ years of systemic dehumanization and torture carried by that word. It's not a word. It's a reminder and a promise. It carries weight we cannot imagine. Why he said it matters far less than the fact that it was said. It was said and the reaction by most news outlets is to focus on the illness that said it.

      Focus on Michael B. Jordan and Delroy Lindo, Oscar nominated actors from one of the most critically acclaimed movies of the season being reminded that some people still never see them as anything other than that word. John Davidson didn't mean it. His illness chose the word. But there are millions of white people who do mean it, every day. People filled with overflowing hatred. When they hear that it doesn't matter why it was said. Just that it was said and it put those two incredibly talented men and every other person of color within earshot "in their place".

      The BBC could have censored it. They had a two hour delay. They could have offered an honest apology and acknowledged how deadly that word is, and it is deadly.

      They did neither. They should be the ones blamed and punished. They knew and they did not prepare. They were told and they didn't listen.

      I'm sad for John Davidson and the "mortification" he feels. He was there to celebrate a movie made about his own life to shine a light on his disability.

      I'm more sad for every BIPOC who saw this live or read about it and was reminded that they are never safe, not even when they do everything right and are at the top of their game.

      One word tells them it will never be enough.

      That's the legacy we have to understand. Slavery. Literal chatel slavery. That's what that word conjures. Can you imagine?

      But I'm white. I've already spent too much time talking instead of listening.

      M.S. Bellows, Jr.M This user is from outside of this forum
      M.S. Bellows, Jr.M This user is from outside of this forum
      M.S. Bellows, Jr.
      wrote last edited by
      #79

      @jrdepriest @venitamathias _/\_

      1 Reply Last reply
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      • Katrina Katrinka :donor:K Katrina Katrinka :donor:

        @msbellows
        The point is he made the choice to sit in that audience. He knew he was ticking. He knew it was a possibility he would yell it and he chose to stay throughout. Even after he yelled it.

        I judge his choice.

        M.S. Bellows, Jr.M This user is from outside of this forum
        M.S. Bellows, Jr.M This user is from outside of this forum
        M.S. Bellows, Jr.
        wrote last edited by
        #80

        @katrinakatrinka You didn't answer my question, though.

        Katrina Katrinka :donor:K 1 Reply Last reply
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        • M.S. Bellows, Jr.M M.S. Bellows, Jr.

          @katrinakatrinka You didn't answer my question, though.

          Katrina Katrinka :donor:K This user is from outside of this forum
          Katrina Katrinka :donor:K This user is from outside of this forum
          Katrina Katrinka :donor:
          wrote last edited by
          #81

          @msbellows
          You're constructing a straw man to fight. I told you my position.

          M.S. Bellows, Jr.M 1 Reply Last reply
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          • ~* SarahS ~* Sarah

            @msbellows this isn't just "polite comfort". The man was literally hurling verbal abuse at others. Someone isn't allowed to stim by slapping other people, that man is at the very least incredibly rude by staying in that environment and being an asshole to everyone else.

            M.S. Bellows, Jr.M This user is from outside of this forum
            M.S. Bellows, Jr.M This user is from outside of this forum
            M.S. Bellows, Jr.
            wrote last edited by
            #82

            @stellarsarah Would you say the same if he had cursed without saying the n-word?

            ~* SarahS 1 Reply Last reply
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            • Katrina Katrinka :donor:K Katrina Katrinka :donor:

              @msbellows
              You're constructing a straw man to fight. I told you my position.

              M.S. Bellows, Jr.M This user is from outside of this forum
              M.S. Bellows, Jr.M This user is from outside of this forum
              M.S. Bellows, Jr.
              wrote last edited by
              #83

              @katrinakatrinka I'm truly not. I'm trying to understand whether you think he should not have been allowed to blurt vulgarities, or just this one vulgarity in particular; whether they should have bleeped out all vulgarities, or just this one. It's a substantial difference, to an antiracist person with Tourette's.

              Katrina Katrinka :donor:K 1 Reply Last reply
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              • M.S. Bellows, Jr.M M.S. Bellows, Jr.

                @stellarsarah Would you say the same if he had cursed without saying the n-word?

                ~* SarahS This user is from outside of this forum
                ~* SarahS This user is from outside of this forum
                ~* Sarah
                wrote last edited by
                #84

                @msbellows actually yes. It sounds like he was just yelling "fuck you" at people way too much too, which isn't really okay in this setting either. It sounds like being in a crowd triggers him and he perhaps shouldn't be there, except maybe in a soundproof booth.

                The racial abuse that he hurled at Michael B Jordan and Delroy Lindo was absolutely unacceptable (and doubly so that the BBC let it air).

                1 Reply Last reply
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                • M.S. Bellows, Jr.M M.S. Bellows, Jr.

                  @katrinakatrinka I'm truly not. I'm trying to understand whether you think he should not have been allowed to blurt vulgarities, or just this one vulgarity in particular; whether they should have bleeped out all vulgarities, or just this one. It's a substantial difference, to an antiracist person with Tourette's.

                  Katrina Katrinka :donor:K This user is from outside of this forum
                  Katrina Katrinka :donor:K This user is from outside of this forum
                  Katrina Katrinka :donor:
                  wrote last edited by
                  #85

                  @msbellows
                  What you propose is not what happened. Therefore, not my argument. I'm not interested in "what ifs".

                  "A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.[1]"
                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

                  M.S. Bellows, Jr.M 1 Reply Last reply
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                  • Ivey Janette McClellandI Ivey Janette McClelland

                    @venitamathias Even if it's Tourette's,they should have bleeped this out. And removed the guy from the venue. Apologies and sympathy not accepted.

                    Cairo BragaC This user is from outside of this forum
                    Cairo BragaC This user is from outside of this forum
                    Cairo Braga
                    wrote last edited by
                    #86

                    @IveyJanette @venitamathias they didn't edit this out, but they censored a Palestinian filmmaker saying "Free Palestine". this were deliberate decisions by the BBC.

                    Ivey Janette McClellandI 1 Reply Last reply
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                    • Andrea is wearing a kufiT Andrea is wearing a kufi

                      @rochelimit Anyway I'm not trying to get in a back and forth. But I thought your comment was super condescending and pedantic, and totally lacking in any sort of empathy for Black people.

                      So, you sit with that and make it your own problem, please, instead of implying you know how we ought to react to slurs.

                      Roche LimitR This user is from outside of this forum
                      Roche LimitR This user is from outside of this forum
                      Roche Limit
                      wrote last edited by
                      #87

                      @thiswomanswerk
                      My first comment was to agree with a black poster, that it is wrong to suggest that a person with a neurological condition should be kept away from the ceremony because words, which do not represent that person's feelings, will cause upset.

                      The idea that one innocent group should be protected at the expense of another is something worth debating, isn't it? When balancing rights, the importance of context cannot be ignored.

                      Roche LimitR Steve GisselbrechtS 2 Replies Last reply
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                      • Roche LimitR Roche Limit

                        @thiswomanswerk
                        My first comment was to agree with a black poster, that it is wrong to suggest that a person with a neurological condition should be kept away from the ceremony because words, which do not represent that person's feelings, will cause upset.

                        The idea that one innocent group should be protected at the expense of another is something worth debating, isn't it? When balancing rights, the importance of context cannot be ignored.

                        Roche LimitR This user is from outside of this forum
                        Roche LimitR This user is from outside of this forum
                        Roche Limit
                        wrote last edited by
                        #88

                        @thiswomanswerk
                        Some context:

                        Harm was definately caused (should have been bleeped, BBC has apologised)

                        The context is British rather than Anerican cultural history and rights balancing.

                        The man involved is reported thus:

                        "Davidson, a Tourette's campaigner from Galashiels in Scotland, who was made an MBE in 2019, shouted loudly several times before and during the Bafta ceremony.

                        He said on Monday that he was "deeply mortified if anyone considers my involuntary tics to be intentional or to carry any meaning".

                        "I have spent my life trying to support and empower the Tourette's community and to teach empathy, kindness and understanding from others and I will continue to do so," he said in a statement.

                        "I chose to leave the auditorium early into the ceremony as I was aware of the distress my tics were causing."

                        1 Reply Last reply
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                        • M.S. Bellows, Jr.M M.S. Bellows, Jr.

                          @oldclumsy_nowmad Oh, that's a PERFECT example of what went wrong with BAFTA! That other driver isn't at fault for blanking out, but he IS at fault for choosing to drive if he knew it might be hazardous to other people.

                          Roy -- the dull oneO This user is from outside of this forum
                          Roy -- the dull oneO This user is from outside of this forum
                          Roy -- the dull one
                          wrote last edited by
                          #89

                          @msbellows

                          Yes! A medical condition doesn't excuse us from responsibility. It's appropriate to be angry when people knowingly put us at risk.

                          However, it isn't right to infer, without additional evidence, that a socially unacceptable behavior necessarily reveals a secret "mindset" of the offender. And it's really dumb to think like this: "There! I knew it! That bald guy tried to run me off the road! It's true that bald men hate people with long hair like mine!"

                          Thanks for posting!

                          1 Reply Last reply
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                          • Katrina Katrinka :donor:K Katrina Katrinka :donor:

                            @msbellows
                            What you propose is not what happened. Therefore, not my argument. I'm not interested in "what ifs".

                            "A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.[1]"
                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

                            M.S. Bellows, Jr.M This user is from outside of this forum
                            M.S. Bellows, Jr.M This user is from outside of this forum
                            M.S. Bellows, Jr.
                            wrote last edited by
                            #90

                            @katrinakatrinka He did both. I'm asking which one troubled you. You're being evasive, which means you see this as an argument rather than a discussion, and therefore you're not worth my time. Goodbye and be well, if that's possible for you.

                            Katrina Katrinka :donor:K 1 Reply Last reply
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                            • Ivey Janette McClellandI This user is from outside of this forum
                              Ivey Janette McClellandI This user is from outside of this forum
                              Ivey Janette McClelland
                              wrote last edited by
                              #91

                              @Jakra And to many of us older Blacks,that word is an insult. Period.

                              1 Reply Last reply
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                              • Cairo BragaC Cairo Braga

                                @IveyJanette @venitamathias they didn't edit this out, but they censored a Palestinian filmmaker saying "Free Palestine". this were deliberate decisions by the BBC.

                                Ivey Janette McClellandI This user is from outside of this forum
                                Ivey Janette McClellandI This user is from outside of this forum
                                Ivey Janette McClelland
                                wrote last edited by
                                #92

                                @cairobraga @venitamathias The BBC did its version of the same selective editing that Fox routinely does whenever Trump shows up at sporting events not named NASCAR or LIV Golf: edit out the boos.

                                1 Reply Last reply
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                                • Ivey Janette McClellandI Ivey Janette McClelland

                                  Bullshit.

                                  #blackmastodon
                                  https://newsone.com/6850753/tourettes-tic-blamed-nword-being-yelled-baftas/

                                  Ivey Janette McClellandI This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Ivey Janette McClellandI This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Ivey Janette McClelland
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #93

                                  This is why the apology is not being accepted:

                                  #blackmastodon https://newsone.com/6850861/black-people-dont-have-accept-john-davidson-apology/

                                  1 Reply Last reply
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                                  • Ivey Janette McClellandI This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Ivey Janette McClellandI This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Ivey Janette McClelland
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #94

                                    @venitamathias @cairobraga When Trump was at the Super Bowl last year and at the Commanders game? Fox piped in fake cheers,even though the crowd booed him vociferously. ESPN did the same thing when he showed up at the US Open in Queens. Conform or be cast out.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • PeachMcDP PeachMcD

                                      @rochelimit @thiswomanswerk

                                      "Apologies are extended 'if you are offended.' 

                                      If. As though the harm is hypothetical and the racial slur exists only in the realm of personal sensitivity.  If. As though what happened depends on whether Black people choose to register it. That phrasing shifts the harm from something that happened to something people might feel. The problem subtly relocates from the racial act to Black folks’ reaction."

                                      Andrea is wearing a kufiT This user is from outside of this forum
                                      Andrea is wearing a kufiT This user is from outside of this forum
                                      Andrea is wearing a kufi
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #95

                                      @PeachMcD I mean I think to ppl like roche harm to black people is indeed hypothetical--given I had to nearly cuss them out for them to even acknowledge the use of the slur was harmful.

                                      Now it's context this and context that, except, conveniently, for the context of the harm it causes Black people

                                      Their use of "debate" is very revealing because the ppl in the thread they initially responded were not in a debate. They were in pain. But Black pain is always up for debate and discussion on here.

                                      PeachMcDP 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • M.S. Bellows, Jr.M M.S. Bellows, Jr.

                                        @katrinakatrinka He did both. I'm asking which one troubled you. You're being evasive, which means you see this as an argument rather than a discussion, and therefore you're not worth my time. Goodbye and be well, if that's possible for you.

                                        Katrina Katrinka :donor:K This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Katrina Katrinka :donor:K This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Katrina Katrinka :donor:
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #96

                                        @msbellows
                                        "I'm asking..."

                                        You're "refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction."

                                        1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • Ericka SimoneE This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Ericka SimoneE This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Ericka Simone
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #97

                                          @venitamathias @msbellows let him know we know he only blocks black women holding him accountable. Not other white people doing the same though.

                                          VenitaV 1 Reply Last reply
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