If Rachel Reeves cannot see that university student loans are becoming a totemic issue among graduates, then she may be heading for her own Nick-Clegg-moment when one decision prompts a haemorrhaging of the graduate vote (from Labour).

If Rachel Reeves cannot see that university student loans are becoming a totemic issue among graduates, then she may be heading for her own Nick-Clegg-moment when one decision prompts a haemorrhaging of the graduate vote (from Labour).

The problem is that Labour still thinks they can bank on there being no vialable alternative on their left flank; which with Zack Polanski leading the GPEW, is no longer true; another Labour miscalculation?

#politics #universities #Greens
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3k4xdqyp1o

If Rachel Reeves cannot see that university student loans are becoming a totemic issue among graduates, then she may be heading for her own Nick-Clegg-moment when one decision prompts a haemorrhaging of the graduate vote (from Labour).

The problem is that Labour still thinks they can bank on there being no vialable alternative on their left flank; which with Zack Polanski leading the GPEW, is no longer true; another Labour miscalculation?

#politics #universities #Greens
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3k4xdqyp1o

If Rachel Reeves cannot see that university student loans are becoming a totemic issue among graduates, then she may be heading for her own Nick-Clegg-moment when one decision prompts a haemorrhaging of the graduate vote (from Labour).

The problem is that Labour still thinks they can bank on there being no vialable alternative on their left flank; which with Zack Polanski leading the GPEW, is no longer true; another Labour miscalculation?

#politics #universities #Greens
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3k4xdqyp1o

If Rachel Reeves cannot see that university student loans are becoming a totemic issue among graduates, then she may be heading for her own Nick-Clegg-moment when one decision prompts a haemorrhaging of the graduate vote (from Labour).

The problem is that Labour still thinks they can bank on there being no vialable alternative on their left flank; which with Zack Polanski leading the GPEW, is no longer true; another Labour miscalculation?

#politics #universities #Greens
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3k4xdqyp1o

@ChrisMayLA6, … violable?

@ChrisMayLA6 Several generations of Labour politicians have assumed that in England, voters had no choice to the left.

Now that there is a leftwing choice, Labour finds itself unable to listen or speak to leftwing voters. Forty years of triangulation has the party untrustworthy. "Keep the Tories out" doesn’t work when you look and sound like Tories and smear anti-genociders as "terrorists".

This can't be fixed from the top. And Labour is out of time. It doesn't have a decade to relearn.

If Rachel Reeves cannot see that university student loans are becoming a totemic issue among graduates, then she may be heading for her own Nick-Clegg-moment when one decision prompts a haemorrhaging of the graduate vote (from Labour).

The problem is that Labour still thinks they can bank on there being no vialable alternative on their left flank; which with Zack Polanski leading the GPEW, is no longer true; another Labour miscalculation?

#politics #universities #Greens
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3k4xdqyp1o

@2legged

Yes, I think that's right; Labour's political calculations *are* 'out of time'

If Rachel Reeves cannot see that university student loans are becoming a totemic issue among graduates, then she may be heading for her own Nick-Clegg-moment when one decision prompts a haemorrhaging of the graduate vote (from Labour).

The problem is that Labour still thinks they can bank on there being no vialable alternative on their left flank; which with Zack Polanski leading the GPEW, is no longer true; another Labour miscalculation?

#politics #universities #Greens
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3k4xdqyp1o

@ChrisMayLA6 my children have just been discussing their student loan repayments, and are not happy! One was told it was just like another phone bill. Not at >£250/month!

@ChrisMayLA6 And the reason UKLabour are out of time is #FPTP.

In 2007–11, #FiannaFail drove Ireland's economy over a cliff edge. #FF lost 58% of its vote share at Ireland's 2011 general election, but #STV ensured that #FF was not wiped out. It partially rebuilt, and by 2024 FF was again the largest party.

But #FPTP is far more brutal to losers. Labour's likely fall to under 20% of the vote will leave it as a tiny rump, too weak to rebuild.

If Rachel Reeves cannot see that university student loans are becoming a totemic issue among graduates, then she may be heading for her own Nick-Clegg-moment when one decision prompts a haemorrhaging of the graduate vote (from Labour).

The problem is that Labour still thinks they can bank on there being no vialable alternative on their left flank; which with Zack Polanski leading the GPEW, is no longer true; another Labour miscalculation?

#politics #universities #Greens
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce3k4xdqyp1o

@jwi

Agreed; I have been saying as such for some time...

https://northwestbylines.co.uk/news/education/who-should-pay-for-students-to-go-to-university/

@ChrisMayLA6 @jwi

I think there are a lot of related issues that mean that this can’t be addressed in isolation.

Dismantling the polytechnics removed the best vocational qualifications. The best route into aerospace engineering, for example, used to be through a poly, but when they became a university they had to restructure the course to make it an accredited degree and that destroyed a lot of its value. There were several other subjects where a high-quality course at a poly was a better route in than a university degree.

This has meant that universities have had to take up that rôle as a path to employment. This, in turn, has led to jobs requiring ‘a degree’ but as a box-ticking exercise rather than anything that the job needs or as anything that gives the student either personal enrichment or transferable skills.

I saw some of the worst outcomes of this first hand when I was at Swansea. The Vice Chancellor shut down the Chemistry department because he wanted to get more students into the Media Studies department. The Chemistry department was rated 5 in the previous RAE, the Media Studies department was rated 1. There are some great Media Studies courses, which lead directly to careers in journalism (Cardiff used to have one, no idea if that’s still true. Again, this used to be something the polys did better), but the Swansea one was a waste of everyone’s time.

So there’s a massive push towards academic qualifications as entry to jobs, which means lots of people taking on loans to do degrees in which they have no interest, giving them a piece of paper that prevents them from being deselected but no knowledge or skills that they will actually use in the future. That’s enormously wasteful but also something that can’t be addressed by any intervention solely in the university sector.

There’s also the social aspect. I viewed my student loan as a poorly administered graduate tax: I took the loan and then, if I earned enough, I would pay more tax. But that’s a very middle-class attitude to debt. There are stark differences in how people view this kind of debt and working class people are far more likely to view any form of debt as a negative. So student loans end up skewing the demographics of university attendance away from working class people, at the same time as increasing the number of graduates is advertised as a tool for improving social mobility. That can be addressed by moving to a graduate tax.

I am increasingly convinced that universities fall far short of meeting their requirements both as centres of research excellence and as educational institutions, but fixing either or both of those requires some significant reforms (and defenestration of most university senior administrators).

@david_chisnall @ChrisMayLA6 @jwi

Indeed, the comparison in professionalism and abilities of the workforce between the UK and countries that have kept their work schools vs universities separate is stark.

@ChrisMayLA6 @jwi

I think there are a lot of related issues that mean that this can’t be addressed in isolation.

Dismantling the polytechnics removed the best vocational qualifications. The best route into aerospace engineering, for example, used to be through a poly, but when they became a university they had to restructure the course to make it an accredited degree and that destroyed a lot of its value. There were several other subjects where a high-quality course at a poly was a better route in than a university degree.

This has meant that universities have had to take up that rôle as a path to employment. This, in turn, has led to jobs requiring ‘a degree’ but as a box-ticking exercise rather than anything that the job needs or as anything that gives the student either personal enrichment or transferable skills.

I saw some of the worst outcomes of this first hand when I was at Swansea. The Vice Chancellor shut down the Chemistry department because he wanted to get more students into the Media Studies department. The Chemistry department was rated 5 in the previous RAE, the Media Studies department was rated 1. There are some great Media Studies courses, which lead directly to careers in journalism (Cardiff used to have one, no idea if that’s still true. Again, this used to be something the polys did better), but the Swansea one was a waste of everyone’s time.

So there’s a massive push towards academic qualifications as entry to jobs, which means lots of people taking on loans to do degrees in which they have no interest, giving them a piece of paper that prevents them from being deselected but no knowledge or skills that they will actually use in the future. That’s enormously wasteful but also something that can’t be addressed by any intervention solely in the university sector.

There’s also the social aspect. I viewed my student loan as a poorly administered graduate tax: I took the loan and then, if I earned enough, I would pay more tax. But that’s a very middle-class attitude to debt. There are stark differences in how people view this kind of debt and working class people are far more likely to view any form of debt as a negative. So student loans end up skewing the demographics of university attendance away from working class people, at the same time as increasing the number of graduates is advertised as a tool for improving social mobility. That can be addressed by moving to a graduate tax.

I am increasingly convinced that universities fall far short of meeting their requirements both as centres of research excellence and as educational institutions, but fixing either or both of those requires some significant reforms (and defenestration of most university senior administrators).

@david_chisnall @ChrisMayLA6 @jwi

Indeed, the comparison in professionalism and abilities of the workforce between the UK and countries that have kept their work schools vs universities separate is stark.

@albertcardona @ChrisMayLA6 @jwi

This has roots in classism, which Thatcher and Blair both made worse. There’s a perception that degrees are more valuable than vocational qualifications and that jobs in professions are more than those in trades. Both of which are total nonsense. And don’t even correlate with income, just with Victorian prejudices.