episcopalian: “yeahh versus populum isnt perfect”canadian anglo-catholic: “this is why we should do it ad orientum”episcopalian: “ehhh ad orientum has its issues too.

@lizzie

versus populum - facing the congregation
ad orientum - to the east (biblically supported)
north facing - innovation
ad romanum - American catholics face rome.

Ah yes, christian qibla discourse.

@technicallydifficult north side liturgies exist for the same reason as versus populum’s adoption among protestants (and later roman catholics). its so the laity can see what the priest is doing. anglicans used that for quite a while before switching back to the east and then to versus populum

@lizzie

The point of the service is worship, not entertainment.

@technicallydifficult who said the laity being able to see is a matter of entertainment?

@lizzie

I see versus populi as a slippery slope into charismatic services.

@technicallydifficult the eucharist is a celebration of thanksgiving. the laity celebrate too. there is a lot of symbolism built into the liturgy for the understanding and participation of the laity. allowing them to see the bread broken for them is entirely consistent with this as every major liturgical western church has decided including rome and the anglicans. both traditions do still use ad orientum sometimes

youve gotta be able to convert to a religion without diving headfirst into chuddy contrarianism immediately or you will get burned

@lizzie

aye aye capn

i like how muslims used to face jerusalem when the prophet mohammed was still around and he only changed it to mecca due to some schism with the local jews

CC: @lizzie@brain.worm.pink

@zuki @lizzie

If you compare Islam with Arianite Christianity, it's rediculously similar. And Khadija's uncle was an Arianite monk. I don't think that's a coincidence.

@zuki @lizzie

Like, now that I've seen what happens when you take Arianism to extremes, I get Paul more, and why he might have been hesitant to have Pagans adopt Judaism before Christianity.

@technicallydifficult a lot of my issue with the “performance” rhetoric is that a lot of the orthobros advocating for retvrn to ad orientum want it because they want a performance. they want things to feel more majestic for their feelings

im not against ad orientum, but i think the people who want it most are exactly those who should not have it. they make the liturgy an idol.

like the reason i kinda jokingly suggested a return to north side liturgy is bc the pro ad orientum guy in that conversation literally thinks priests are ontologically superior to the laity and deacons, which is something even the chuddy priests ive seen advocating for ad orientum would disavow. i want a reverent liturgy but i want that to be ultimately reverent to God rather than to man