Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python.
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Steve Klabnik also had an interview on lobste.rs. There's a lot in it! It's a cool read! https://alexalejandre.com/programming/steve-klabnik-interview/
And then it gets to the AI part and he's just like "oh I don't write code anymore".
And notably Steve Klabnik has a lot to say about code, but it's *all in the past*.
Lots of brilliant people are becoming non-practitioners.
@cwebber “Lots of brilliant people are becoming non-practitioners” is a statement that is going to stay with me for a long time.
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@cwebber
My HR guy thinks I'm a fool for criticizing the new "vibe coding bootcamp," and that this is the new reality that he needs to train folks for.
Nope nope nopetty nope. -
It took me a long time to find a programing puzzle at the right level for 5th grade. Many things that might seem simple are too complex.
Making the Roman numeral converter they learn about indexes and lists, place value, and modular division.
It's really math, and logic. Working out how to present the question made *me* smarter since I had to think about the problem in a new way that avoided aspects of coding that were ... technical without really teaching much.
I use roman numerals as a startup kata in coding dojos, like a workshop to practice pair programming and writing tests and talk about programming practices.
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber my only lived experience of this person you link on lobsters is them showing up on every comment on every post even tangentially about LLMs to defend their usage of them, so i'm gonna say "why hang out on the forums" is $$ or ego
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I use roman numerals as a startup kata in coding dojos, like a workshop to practice pair programming and writing tests and talk about programming practices.
A solution that 5th graders can complete
elegant? eh
print("Roman Numerals")
ones = ["","I","II", "III", "IV", "V","VI", "VII", "VIII", "IX"]
tens = ["", "X", "XX","XXX", "XL", "L", "LX", "LXX", "LXXX", "XC"]
hundreds = ["", "C", "CC", "CCC", "CD", "D", "DC", "DCC", "DCC", "CM"]
thousands = ["", "M", "MM", "MMM"]n = input("enter a number 1 to 3999")
n=int(n)m=n//1000
n=n-m*1000h=n//100
n=n-h*100t=n//10
n=n-t*10print(thousands[m]+hundreds[h]+tens[t]+ones[n])
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I don't really get how one could use an LLM to help with coding without reading the code?
That's baffling. But I don't make apps I teach young people to think and solve problems. So maybe that's why I don't get it.
I think LLMs enable a new form of reuse in programming. Previously you could reuse abstraction, or copy code and adjust it. LLMs lets you reuse patterns. It has aspects of both other forms of reuse.
With abstractions and sometimes copy and paste we reuse without fully understanding how the thing works in detail. That's fine and useful and has drawbacks too. LLM reuse also allows choosing how much to understand.
LLMs, when run as an agent, have more levels, not only do they have access to patterns of code but also to patterns of coding; compile, run tests, debug, etc. So reuse of activity, somewhat similar to development tools but pattern based.
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber the other answer to "why hang out on the forums at all then" is: what else are they gonna do while their laptop is busy rentin sloptokens from billionaires? their actual jobs?
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Feeling FOMO about AI? Well here's my advice!
Stay on top of what's happening. Which doesn't really require *using* the tools. Just see what people are doing.
Whether or not you do use it, stay a practitioner. And don't fall for the FOMO.
Your career won't end because you're not making the choice to use AI. (If your employer makes you use it, that's another thing.)
If you use AI, use it for "summarize and explore" tasks. DO NOT use it for *generate* tasks. That's a different thing.
If you want to differentiate yourself, *learning skills* is the differentiation space right now.
These things are easy to pick up. You can do it whenever. But keep learning.
If you see generated examples, don't paste or accept them. Type them in by hand! The hands on imperative: actually trying things congeals core ideas.
And if it doesn't help your career... well, your consolation prize is: you'll stay interesting.
@cwebber i'm staying interesting and unemployed. woot.
I'm not a user of such tools but I am afraid that whatever AI auto summary is reading my resume is looking up my website and socials and not recommending me due to my stance on these issues.
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A solution that 5th graders can complete
elegant? eh
print("Roman Numerals")
ones = ["","I","II", "III", "IV", "V","VI", "VII", "VIII", "IX"]
tens = ["", "X", "XX","XXX", "XL", "L", "LX", "LXX", "LXXX", "XC"]
hundreds = ["", "C", "CC", "CCC", "CD", "D", "DC", "DCC", "DCC", "CM"]
thousands = ["", "M", "MM", "MMM"]n = input("enter a number 1 to 3999")
n=int(n)m=n//1000
n=n-m*1000h=n//100
n=n-h*100t=n//10
n=n-t*10print(thousands[m]+hundreds[h]+tens[t]+ones[n])
Very nice! I have watched experienced devs have to work at this too. They often lean towards overcomplicating things because they want to avoid hardcoding the patterns. But this then leads to a nice little discussion.
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber The original linked article here is a really good read.
https://whynot.fail/human/ai-is-slowly-munching-away-my-passion/ -
@cwebber What's telling, I think, is that all these people go on about how much they're doing and how great AI is to help them build more *but there's no actual demonstrable stuff being done.* I mean, if AI was some kind of Nx multiplier you'd think we'd be getting N times more actual functionality out of software but mostly it seems like the N multiplier only applies to blog posts about how AI multiplies their programming.
@wordshaper @cwebber every line of code is a liability. it's funny that suddenly "lines of code generated" is a metric and they're all smiling, proud.
meanwhile... some AWS agent decided to rewrite half the code base on its own and deploy it to production which took down some important AWS services.
we'll just keep generating more, faster. tech debt creation at scale.
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@cwebber identity, community, established relationships, safety of a known space?
(I don't know this individual, answering in the general sense)
@cwebber on reflection, "I am no longer a part of community X" is probably a big step for hearts to take, even when original criteria for membership are no longer met
Even when humans stray FAR from a community, I think they can identify/feel it quite differently! ("I'm the only remaining true member of community X")
Yes X is a wryly amusing placeholder to me rn lol
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@cwebber What's telling, I think, is that all these people go on about how much they're doing and how great AI is to help them build more *but there's no actual demonstrable stuff being done.* I mean, if AI was some kind of Nx multiplier you'd think we'd be getting N times more actual functionality out of software but mostly it seems like the N multiplier only applies to blog posts about how AI multiplies their programming.
@wordshaper @cwebber I don't think you appreciate just how many man years go into writing production level code. My productivity has tripled but if takes weeks to get a prototype in front of 100k+ users. Is not like we're going to release clawd and watch the world burn
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber yeah, even without my and many others’ objections to LLMs, it’s depressing to read about someone essentially giving up a skill.
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Very nice! I have watched experienced devs have to work at this too. They often lean towards overcomplicating things because they want to avoid hardcoding the patterns. But this then leads to a nice little discussion.
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@cwebber Also, don't use it for "summarize" because it literally can't do that.
https://ea.rna.nl/2024/05/27/when-chatgpt-summarises-it-actually-does-nothing-of-the-kind/
@jwcph @cwebber Also see “ChatGPT trust is risky, as a recent study by the European Broadcasting Union (EBU) shows. The association of 68 public broadcasters from 56 countries systematically tested the reliability of the most popular AI systems. The alarming result: ChatGPT, Gemini, and other chatbots invent up to 40 percent of their answers and present them as facts.”
EBU – European Broadcasting Union (2025) News Integrity in AI Assistants. An international PSM study, https://www.ebu.ch/Report/MIS-BBC/NI_AI_2025.pdf
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