"barely legal" is a key word phrase from the porn industry used to describe 18 year olds.

@futurebird The weirdest wrinkle of this to me is that the adults who get off on exploiting young people also want to tell themselves that on some level, the child is aware and happily exploiting themselves. It's Nabokov's greatest insight in Lolita about pedophiles, that unfortunately pedophile readers thought he was celebrating. For young people, it makes it impossible to get predators to believe when you say no, not me, not anyone my age.

@carrideen

I keep thinking about how lonely it must be to know that people only want to be around you because of your money or your power.

Or because of your looks or your age.

It's degrading to everyone, and so often when there is a community where this is going on there are a few guys at the center of it all. "come on honey you know that's how it works" type guys. Because they can't hack it any other way and make it a problem for everyone.

@futurebird @gbargoud > Edit: changed men to people.

I think framing it as a problem only among men can be harmful. Women like Ghislaine Maxwell are every bit as dangerous as any man, and talking about exploitation as something men do to women makes it easier for them to go unnoticed.

@carrideen @futurebird
There is not a world in which this is ethical behavior. Unethical at minimum, and dismissible IMO.
The inherent power differential between facility and student places a pressure to comply on the student. Consent within power differentials hard to navigate. That’s why most places have rules against bosses dating subordinates. Too much potential for abuse, or favoritism.
Add in the relative immaturity of 18-22-year-olds and that power gap grows. Our brains are not done developing until middle-late twenty’s. Presumably, a prof has hit that point and has more life experience, where the student has not. Another way the student is disadvantaged in these interactions.
Any institution that does not explicitly denounce this behavior, and set up safeguards for students is also inherently an unethical and immoral institution. There should be no tolerance for abuse in higher education. We should be preparing the next generation to take over and run this world into a better future, not compound trauma many already have experienced.

@futurebird The weirdest wrinkle of this to me is that the adults who get off on exploiting young people also want to tell themselves that on some level, the child is aware and happily exploiting themselves. It's Nabokov's greatest insight in Lolita about pedophiles, that unfortunately pedophile readers thought he was celebrating. For young people, it makes it impossible to get predators to believe when you say no, not me, not anyone my age.

@carrideen @futurebird @jeffcodes

Tangential, but "brains are done developing around 25" isn't really true. It's a "media seizes upon a nuanced finding and makes up a vastly over-simplified story" type myth. We oldies still make new neurons and have "synaptic plasticity". Not meaning this as an excuse for molesting or exploiting young people of course!

@futurebird but on second thought, if it only considers age, then it can't solve problems brought on by other factors (like indications that the older person likely doesn't care about consent in general)

@JamesWidman

* The professors date their students
* He's in charge of casting so it wouldn't hurt to be nice to him, Honey.
* It's an easy job, you just give massages to these old guys and it can get a little gross but you can make money after school.
* The boss is having an affair with the new secretary
* If you are a star they let you do it
* That modeling agency expects the girls to "do" parties

All these ways social roles, shame, naivete of often younger people are exploited.

@carrideen @futurebird those old powerful men ruin so many careers, yet when one of these victims (usually women) dare to speak up, everyone else thinks the old man career could be ruined and *that* shouldn't happen because he's "so brillant"

@eco_amandine @futurebird At our little college, all the men who slept with students got tenured and promoted, and eventually into administration so they couldn't abuse more students--and then took on roles in oversight of Title IX, etc. And anyone who questioned it was told that half the faculty spouses in town were former students, so clearly those relationships were "successful." Marriage is not a pedagogical goal of mine! None of those spouses pursued their own careers.

@carrideen @eco_amandine

My great grand mother was married at 15 to some guy in his 40s so her land couldn't be taken. It was "sucessful."

But it was also terrible.

@futurebird Try Good Ol' Boys (ie Rednecks) rather than boys

@carrideen @futurebird
There is not a world in which this is ethical behavior. Unethical at minimum, and dismissible IMO.
The inherent power differential between facility and student places a pressure to comply on the student. Consent within power differentials hard to navigate. That’s why most places have rules against bosses dating subordinates. Too much potential for abuse, or favoritism.
Add in the relative immaturity of 18-22-year-olds and that power gap grows. Our brains are not done developing until middle-late twenty’s. Presumably, a prof has hit that point and has more life experience, where the student has not. Another way the student is disadvantaged in these interactions.
Any institution that does not explicitly denounce this behavior, and set up safeguards for students is also inherently an unethical and immoral institution. There should be no tolerance for abuse in higher education. We should be preparing the next generation to take over and run this world into a better future, not compound trauma many already have experienced.

@jeffcodes @carrideen @futurebird At law School, I, then a thirty year old man, pursued, dated, and eventually married a 35-year-old professor. we have three beautiful children together.

be careful of categoricals like there is no world.

@Amoshias @carrideen @futurebird
Running the world in a manner than caters to the exception leads to a lot of abuse.
I am a licensed therapist. There are therapist out there who married former clients. I still would never say that allowing that categorically is safe and ethical.
There is an inherent power structure and single-directional vulnerability at play. It should always remain unethical to have relationships with clients. I’ll gladly engage in a discussion of, “how long is long enough without contact or relationship to pursue and deeper relationship?”

@jeffcodes @carrideen @futurebird At law School, I, then a thirty year old man, pursued, dated, and eventually married a 35-year-old professor. we have three beautiful children together.

be careful of categoricals like there is no world.

@Amoshias @carrideen @futurebird
Running the world in a manner than caters to the exception leads to a lot of abuse.
I am a licensed therapist. There are therapist out there who married former clients. I still would never say that allowing that categorically is safe and ethical.
There is an inherent power structure and single-directional vulnerability at play. It should always remain unethical to have relationships with clients. I’ll gladly engage in a discussion of, “how long is long enough without contact or relationship to pursue and deeper relationship?”

@jeffcodes @Amoshias @futurebird Yeah, I don't see how marriage is a desirable outcome for of academic mentorship, or therapy. If you marry your professor or therapist, someone has done their job badly! Even long after a student is no longer in my class, I have to write recommendation letters for them and mentor them in their decisions. You can't write recommendations for your spouse. Even if it's a happy marriage, it is certainly not good teaching.

@carrideen @Amoshias @futurebird
I would agree. For me, I could never, would never, have an outside romantic relationship with current or former clients.
Even a casual friendship seems odd and rife with opportunity for abuse. Former clients toward therapist and expecting their ear, and therapist toward former client where the therapist may, even inadvertently, use their former vulnerabilities for the therapists own ends.
The err is to be cautious. There are 8.5 billion people on this planet. You can find a companion that is not problematic of all times elsewhere.

@jeffcodes @Amoshias @futurebird I often reminded my colleagues who dated students, and claimed they just happen to be attracted to 20-year-olds, which is NOT A CRIME, that it's still bad pedagogy, and they would be more than welcome to date other 20yos. Oh no, they say, I need smart 20yos. OK, so date students at the college in the next town over. For some fascinating reason, those 20yos are not attracted to mediocre middle-aged academics. Just the ones in their classes.