Jack Dorsey skipped ActivityPub, built AtProto, lost Twitter, funded Bluesky, watched it become a company with VCs and a board, said it was "repeating all the mistakes," left, and now funds Nostr.
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@quillmatiq @dansup So, I'd like to give you some unsolicited advice, since you've been so generous with yours.
If you want to see more cooperation between people on the Fediverse and the ATmosphere, telling people on the Fediverse that they're bad and wrong and nasty isn't working. It may be true, but it's not effective.
@quillmatiq @dansup There are a lot of cases for Fediverse developers to support cooperation.
1. "They're like us". As you've pointed out, ATProto has evolved (almost?) beyond the control of one venture-funded startup. There is a community of third-party developers who are doing interesting things. They are more like Fediverse developers than we realize. Even if the foundations of ATProto suck (agree to disagree!), there's some cool work being done by cool people who share a lot of our values.
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@adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq
blacksky should build on activitypub
if they build on atproto, ok
good luck to them
but they seem to be choosing a sinking ship
@benroyce It's our own fault that they didn't, though. Black people have been actively pushed out of this community.
You've probably read this by now, but here it is again.
https://logicmag.io/policy/blackness-in-the-fediverse-a-conversation-with-marcia-x/
And of course: https://privacy.thenexus.today/start-making-the-fediverse-less-toxic/
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@quillmatiq @dansup There are a lot of cases for Fediverse developers to support cooperation.
1. "They're like us". As you've pointed out, ATProto has evolved (almost?) beyond the control of one venture-funded startup. There is a community of third-party developers who are doing interesting things. They are more like Fediverse developers than we realize. Even if the foundations of ATProto suck (agree to disagree!), there's some cool work being done by cool people who share a lot of our values.
2. "Bigger is better". Because we're bridged, more people on Bluesky and ATProto services is helpful for the Fediverse. It means more creators making cool content for Fediverse users to read and listen to and use, and it means a bigger audience for Fediverse creators to reach. Bigger networks are, generally, better. (Thanks, Metcalfe's Law!)
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@benroyce It's our own fault that they didn't, though. Black people have been actively pushed out of this community.
You've probably read this by now, but here it is again.
https://logicmag.io/policy/blackness-in-the-fediverse-a-conversation-with-marcia-x/
And of course: https://privacy.thenexus.today/start-making-the-fediverse-less-toxic/
@stefan @adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq
zero argument
i remember reading mekka's posts about the sordid harassment, that us while folks just don't see
that's a struggle we have a duty to help with
i can see jumping to atproto as a valid response
i just fear that whole ecosystem is doomed, because of bluesky
maybe bluesky crashes, and blacksky picks up from the ashes
regardless, it's fruitful to fight the fucking reply guy bigots on mastodon, as an ethos, and with technical improvements
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2. "Bigger is better". Because we're bridged, more people on Bluesky and ATProto services is helpful for the Fediverse. It means more creators making cool content for Fediverse users to read and listen to and use, and it means a bigger audience for Fediverse creators to reach. Bigger networks are, generally, better. (Thanks, Metcalfe's Law!)
3. "Exchange of ideas". There are some really interesting things for us to learn from each other in the different protocol communities. I think the client-first, dapp-style development happening in the ATProto community is a *great* architecture for us to adopt in the Fediverse. You mentioned long-form text standards between FEP-b2b8 and standard.site -- another great opportunity for some mutual learning.
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@quillmatiq @dansup So, I'd like to give you some unsolicited advice, since you've been so generous with yours.
If you want to see more cooperation between people on the Fediverse and the ATmosphere, telling people on the Fediverse that they're bad and wrong and nasty isn't working. It may be true, but it's not effective.
@evan I called out the culture here because this post exemplifies it. Taking my statement out of context from the broader thread here is unfair.
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@stefan @adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq
zero argument
i remember reading mekka's posts about the sordid harassment, that us while folks just don't see
that's a struggle we have a duty to help with
i can see jumping to atproto as a valid response
i just fear that whole ecosystem is doomed, because of bluesky
maybe bluesky crashes, and blacksky picks up from the ashes
regardless, it's fruitful to fight the fucking reply guy bigots on mastodon, as an ethos, and with technical improvements
@benroyce Absolutely!
But I'm just not seeing this as being important enough to the development of Mastodon in particular.
When people called out the strong opposition to quote posts as racist, given that the sort of call-and-response style of conversation has been so popular on Black Twitter, I thought this was reaching a bit.
But now we're looking at the most requested feature, the ability to disable replies, which many agree would help with the harassment particularly marginalized voices receive on here, and again, there is so much pushback, as well from the overall community here.
Starting to see a pattern.
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@benroyce Absolutely!
But I'm just not seeing this as being important enough to the development of Mastodon in particular.
When people called out the strong opposition to quote posts as racist, given that the sort of call-and-response style of conversation has been so popular on Black Twitter, I thought this was reaching a bit.
But now we're looking at the most requested feature, the ability to disable replies, which many agree would help with the harassment particularly marginalized voices receive on here, and again, there is so much pushback, as well from the overall community here.
Starting to see a pattern.
@benroyce And yes, we all know there are technical challenges making that happen, but given this was requested back in 2018, it tells you all you need to know about priorities.
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3. "Exchange of ideas". There are some really interesting things for us to learn from each other in the different protocol communities. I think the client-first, dapp-style development happening in the ATProto community is a *great* architecture for us to adopt in the Fediverse. You mentioned long-form text standards between FEP-b2b8 and standard.site -- another great opportunity for some mutual learning.
4. "Window of opportunity". This is a more complex one, but it is compelling. Basically, there is a non-zero chance that Bluesky's leadership team changes in the next few years, or that their strategy changes. (This has happened with other social networks like Twitter when the advertising business model was adopted.) They may at some point try to claw back the value that's been generated with the current open protocol, open source model. Hopefully not, but you never know!
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@benroyce And yes, we all know there are technical challenges making that happen, but given this was requested back in 2018, it tells you all you need to know about priorities.
@stefan @adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq
i opposed quote posts. i've never used them
even on twitter i never used them
i always thought of them "i'm going to repackage someone else's thoughts" (whether in support or to troll) as inauthentic. i always find replying to be more honest
nevertheless, people like them. and they did put controls on them
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@stefan @adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq
i opposed quote posts. i've never used them
even on twitter i never used them
i always thought of them "i'm going to repackage someone else's thoughts" (whether in support or to troll) as inauthentic. i always find replying to be more honest
nevertheless, people like them. and they did put controls on them
@stefan @adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq
as for reply guy bullshit:
i think that disabling replies is the wrong approach
i think that the ability to delete replies is superior
why should black people force themselves to not get replies and thus be isolated because of the harassment they receive? it puts the burden on the victim of harassment to change their habits. no. we need to directly fight the reply guy harassment instead
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@stefan @adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq
as for reply guy bullshit:
i think that disabling replies is the wrong approach
i think that the ability to delete replies is superior
why should black people force themselves to not get replies and thus be isolated because of the harassment they receive? it puts the burden on the victim of harassment to change their habits. no. we need to directly fight the reply guy harassment instead
Definitely did not mean to imply that all opposition was rooted in racism, in case it came across that way!
And there were, again, technical challenges in making that work, some that are still being resolved.
And the ability to disable replies, the way I look at it, is more useful for locking your post in case things get out of hand.
I've had, on two occasions, my post attract pretty vile harassment. One of them was some pro-trans news, the other one, more recent, just generally about harassment in the fediverse.
It would've helped a lot to lock replies while I went ahead and blocked some of the servers, wait a bit for things to cool off, and open the replies back up.
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Definitely did not mean to imply that all opposition was rooted in racism, in case it came across that way!
And there were, again, technical challenges in making that work, some that are still being resolved.
And the ability to disable replies, the way I look at it, is more useful for locking your post in case things get out of hand.
I've had, on two occasions, my post attract pretty vile harassment. One of them was some pro-trans news, the other one, more recent, just generally about harassment in the fediverse.
It would've helped a lot to lock replies while I went ahead and blocked some of the servers, wait a bit for things to cool off, and open the replies back up.
@benroyce Not sure if this is how everyone would use this feature, but that is one example.
It's more about having the tools to defend yourself while mods and admins can take action.
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@benroyce Not sure if this is how everyone would use this feature, but that is one example.
It's more about having the tools to defend yourself while mods and admins can take action.
@benroyce But I do agree with your larger point.
Having self-defense tools is not a fix for the reasons why they're needed. The culture here needs to vastly improve.
Until then, either people will have the tools, or go to Bluesky, where they have them, and may not need them as much.
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@quillmatiq @dansup I'm not trying to burn you, I promise! I know that you want to engender a culture of kindness and cooperation. I'm trying to suggest a more effective way of doing it: not by telling people they're bad, but by telling people why it's in their own interest to be better.
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@benroyce But I do agree with your larger point.
Having self-defense tools is not a fix for the reasons why they're needed. The culture here needs to vastly improve.
Until then, either people will have the tools, or go to Bluesky, where they have them, and may not need them as much.
I do agree that being able to delete replies would help a lot, part of why I like running my own server!
But that also requires being exposed to vile, hateful stuff.
I think of it as locking comments on your blog. Or at least having a spam filter so that they don't show up publicly. Common sense stuff.
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I do agree that being able to delete replies would help a lot, part of why I like running my own server!
But that also requires being exposed to vile, hateful stuff.
I think of it as locking comments on your blog. Or at least having a spam filter so that they don't show up publicly. Common sense stuff.
@stefan @adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq
i get you
and i agree
if you post something like
"i am dealing with a death in family. i will not be posting in awhile"
and setting it at no replies
you just don't want to fucking deal with it at the moment
no replies is a useful feature
but i do not think black people should be socially isolated because of harassment. "just turn off replies" is asking them to go off in social siberia when the real solution is to fight fucking reply guy bigots
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@stefan @adamtewodros @dansup @quillmatiq
i get you
and i agree
if you post something like
"i am dealing with a death in family. i will not be posting in awhile"
and setting it at no replies
you just don't want to fucking deal with it at the moment
no replies is a useful feature
but i do not think black people should be socially isolated because of harassment. "just turn off replies" is asking them to go off in social siberia when the real solution is to fight fucking reply guy bigots
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@quillmatiq @dansup So, I'd like to give you some unsolicited advice, since you've been so generous with yours.
If you want to see more cooperation between people on the Fediverse and the ATmosphere, telling people on the Fediverse that they're bad and wrong and nasty isn't working. It may be true, but it's not effective.
@evan @quillmatiq @dansup the problem is, and always has been, that we keep fighting between the protocols and slinging mud, such that it deters collaboration.
That's why I wrote that damn letter back in September last year. The more this carries on, the more it hurts us all.
In case you need a refresher: https://writings.thisismissem.social/statement-on-discourse-about-activitypub-and-at-protocol/
That actively had people on both sides going "hell yeah, let's work together" and a small group of people decided they didn't like that. Think about how that impacted developer relations. Think about how that harmed collaborations.
Think about the ideas that could have been cross-pollinated and instead we lost them for ActivityPub and for AT Protocol. (though, tbh, I think it's mainly ActivityPub that lost out here, because AT Protocol is so much further ahead in splitting data from applications)
Also, fwiw, Mastodon has had huge investors to keep it alive at times. That €1 Million euros that Eugen was paid didn't come from the community supporting the project on Patreon. That came from one or a few large funders (investors).
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@reflex @dansup @quillmatiq I think Anuj's point is that there is a growing ecosystem around ATProto that is not owned or controlled by Bluesky LLC. There are a lot of people in that ecosystem that are just as concerned about decentralization and distribution of control as we are. Many people in the LLC even support that decentralization. It is a serious bummer that it's splitting the social web, but at least we have bridges and multistack services to connect us.
@evan @reflex @dansup @quillmatiq thanks for summarising Evan. Is there an accessible (non-dev) article available to explain the makeup of the ATProto ecosystem and the chances of it not being a target/surviving without Bluesky? As a tech-aware/non-dev person, I am not interested in the respective merits of the actual protocols, more about each's ability to thrive away from VC (dev community size, culture, capitalist power dynamics... what else?)
