Kinda galling talking to my brother and realising he's already written his own son off due to his gender.

Tattie

The fact that "testosterone made him do it" is being projected onto a four year old boy is proof of how ridiculous the demonisation of a simple sex hormone has become. The lie is taking on a life of its own, free from any sort of scientific rationality.

Biological essentialism of gender is a complete load of balls, if you'll excuse me for that.

Ariaflame

@Tattie If most women can manage to experience some of the extreme irritation/rage that can come on as a perimenopause symptom and not physically attack people, there's no hormonal excuse for others who have chosen violence unless there is some underlying medical condition that is extremely rare.

datarama

@Tattie AFAIK (and I may be wrong), boys *do* have testosterone throughout childhood ... but so do girls, and the levels are basically the same. It's produced in the adrenal glands.

(Personally, I've always been weirded out about how some people talk about boys that age, because it is *completely* alien to my own memories of being a boy. And, well, a lot of how people talk about testosterone in adults too.)

Bel Tamtu | Critter Unit

@Tattie Ugh. You're so right. Boys that age aren't producing testosterone in any amount that can be called a "spike" at all. And fuck demonizing/blaming testosterone for the poor behaviour of some people. Sexism and toxic masculinity are at fault. Sexism cuts both ways.

Tattie

I am sympathetic to parents because I think you do have to come to terms with the limits of your control. You send your boy off to preschool and he's coming back smashing up all his toys. That's real.

But it's not biologically ordained, and you have the responsibility to counter the messages he's internalising from society at large. To set positive examples of adult behaviour, to maintain clear rules of what is acceptable and what isn't.

Erik

@Tattie And it doesn't even "make" everyone all of THOSE things. I still have no appetite. And I remember hearing two trans guys bemoaning that they were always cold and they hoped T would change this and it hasn't for either of them.

ClaraBlackInk

@Tattie Not pushing back on this per say, I think what I'm framing is a version of what you're saying.

It seems that some of what we attribute to "boys will be violent or aggressive" is more about how testosterone effects modes of communication.

And, if we would actually see four year old boys as communicating physically through aggression instead of with words it would be helpful for everyone.

Tattie

@Colman it rises and falls. There was a push in the nineties and AIUI the seventies towards more "gender neutral" parenting. But we seem to be swinging away right now.

ClaraBlackInk

@Tattie There's interesting discussions around perimenopause and brain fog that underscore how hormones mess with that pathway between what's in our heads and how we react in the world.

It feels like so much of the shortcutting about "boys will be boys" is that we don't offer the patience prior to the onset of surging testosterone (puberty and beyond) to help boys communicate in the ways that are most articulate and then it becomes simply seen as normal.

pancake :butterfly_::neofox_lesbian:

@Tattie@eldritch.cafe It is prosocial, but it's up to you to be responsible. So I've recently adopted the opinion this is purely selection bias, because socialized people simply participate in the society more (duh). I am also wondering whether the studies that made any claims about negative social impact of T actually did a control for this bias. Because it's also well known that androgen deficiency messes with people of all sexes

Jackie 🍉🏳️‍⚧️☭

@burnoutqueen @Tattie

I'm way hornier as a transgender woman on full feminizing HRT than I ever was trying to live as a dude with natural testosterone.

ClaraBlackInk

@Tattie I often think of how angry one can get as a child when adults won't listen. I see how animals get angry when the expected things don't happen. And...I have wanted to smash open an unopenable jar a few times.

It seems like aggression is often a result of this lack of skill, knowledge, experience or access and little boys often get rewarded quicker for being aggressive.

Which, I think I'm agreeing with you, reinforces inarticulate ways of communicating needs and that becomes gendered.

Jackie 🍉🏳️‍⚧️☭

@jrdepriest @Tattie

Before, I had random erections and I would get horny at random times and it absolutely sucked. I wasn't really "into it", it was more of a physiological need

Now, I generally feel horny in the morning time but it's a lot different. It's more of a mental desire.

Tattie

@datarama you are technically correct, the best sort of correct! /ref

Yeah, testosterone isn't completely absent at that age, just extremely low compared to the levels you'll see going into puberty.