Kinda galling talking to my brother and realising he's already written his own son off due to his gender.
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Kinda galling talking to my brother and realising he's already written his own son off due to his gender.
"Yeah, he's just destructive, he can't help it. That's just how boys are. You know, because of the testosterone."
"He's four years old. His body hasn't started producing testosterone yet."
"No, I'm pretty sure boys always have testosterone, throughout childhood. You can see it in the way they act."
@Tattie oh for ...
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Kinda galling talking to my brother and realising he's already written his own son off due to his gender.
"Yeah, he's just destructive, he can't help it. That's just how boys are. You know, because of the testosterone."
"He's four years old. His body hasn't started producing testosterone yet."
"No, I'm pretty sure boys always have testosterone, throughout childhood. You can see it in the way they act."
@Tattie the most part of the problem that anyone has ever been Jesus Christ
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As far as I can tell, this absolute lie was popularised by a popular book called "raising boys", which claims that boys have a "testosterone spike" when they're four years old.
The paragraph in question says "one scientist has claimed that", followed by admitting that this is "controversial" (that is to say, unsupported by any evidence whatsoever).
But it's really convenient to the argument made by the book, of implicit behavioural differences of girls and boys, and so the author lets the conjecture stand with a wink and a shrug.
People seem to really want to believe this right now, and in a large part I think this is part of a pushback on trans rights. People are clinging to biological essentialism because the presence of people blithely switching from one sex to another Makes Them Uncomfy. They want to keep their boys and girls in very definite boxes, so said kids don't get ideas.
The other part is of course the antifeminism sweeping society. Presented with the evidence of all the shit that men are responsible for, we seem to have just given up on the entire gender. "Boys will be boys"— testosterone fates half the world to just Being Bad People so we just have to accept that.
Of course, these are not independent factors. They're very much linked.
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People seem to really want to believe this right now, and in a large part I think this is part of a pushback on trans rights. People are clinging to biological essentialism because the presence of people blithely switching from one sex to another Makes Them Uncomfy. They want to keep their boys and girls in very definite boxes, so said kids don't get ideas.
The other part is of course the antifeminism sweeping society. Presented with the evidence of all the shit that men are responsible for, we seem to have just given up on the entire gender. "Boys will be boys"— testosterone fates half the world to just Being Bad People so we just have to accept that.
Of course, these are not independent factors. They're very much linked.
And fuck the demonisation of a sex hormone anyway!
I've said it before: testosterone might make you hairy, horny, hungry, and hot, but it does not make you violent. It does not make you destructive. It does not make you anti-empathetic. Those are choices; gender behavioural norms that boys and then men are encouraged by social pressure to conform to, and may reject if they have the strength and the support to do so.
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People seem to really want to believe this right now, and in a large part I think this is part of a pushback on trans rights. People are clinging to biological essentialism because the presence of people blithely switching from one sex to another Makes Them Uncomfy. They want to keep their boys and girls in very definite boxes, so said kids don't get ideas.
The other part is of course the antifeminism sweeping society. Presented with the evidence of all the shit that men are responsible for, we seem to have just given up on the entire gender. "Boys will be boys"— testosterone fates half the world to just Being Bad People so we just have to accept that.
Of course, these are not independent factors. They're very much linked.
@Tattie nah, it has *always* been so. The stereotyping is deeply embedded in culture, this is just a handy justification not to do the work.
"snips and snails and puppy-dogs' tails."
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And fuck the demonisation of a sex hormone anyway!
I've said it before: testosterone might make you hairy, horny, hungry, and hot, but it does not make you violent. It does not make you destructive. It does not make you anti-empathetic. Those are choices; gender behavioural norms that boys and then men are encouraged by social pressure to conform to, and may reject if they have the strength and the support to do so.
@Tattie testosterone made me hungry and horny all the time. But it did not make me a misogynist or a bad person.
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@Tattie testosterone made me hungry and horny all the time. But it did not make me a misogynist or a bad person.
@Tattie I might even need testosterone supplements in the future after I get myself an orchi
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And fuck the demonisation of a sex hormone anyway!
I've said it before: testosterone might make you hairy, horny, hungry, and hot, but it does not make you violent. It does not make you destructive. It does not make you anti-empathetic. Those are choices; gender behavioural norms that boys and then men are encouraged by social pressure to conform to, and may reject if they have the strength and the support to do so.
@Tattie it may bias some men that way, but it's not as if that doesn't apply to some women too.
Overlapping bell curves … well, overlapping multimodal curves but you know what I mean.
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And fuck the demonisation of a sex hormone anyway!
I've said it before: testosterone might make you hairy, horny, hungry, and hot, but it does not make you violent. It does not make you destructive. It does not make you anti-empathetic. Those are choices; gender behavioural norms that boys and then men are encouraged by social pressure to conform to, and may reject if they have the strength and the support to do so.
The fact that "testosterone made him do it" is being projected onto a four year old boy is proof of how ridiculous the demonisation of a simple sex hormone has become. The lie is taking on a life of its own, free from any sort of scientific rationality.
Biological essentialism of gender is a complete load of balls, if you'll excuse me for that.
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And fuck the demonisation of a sex hormone anyway!
I've said it before: testosterone might make you hairy, horny, hungry, and hot, but it does not make you violent. It does not make you destructive. It does not make you anti-empathetic. Those are choices; gender behavioural norms that boys and then men are encouraged by social pressure to conform to, and may reject if they have the strength and the support to do so.
@Tattie If most women can manage to experience some of the extreme irritation/rage that can come on as a perimenopause symptom and not physically attack people, there's no hormonal excuse for others who have chosen violence unless there is some underlying medical condition that is extremely rare.
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Kinda galling talking to my brother and realising he's already written his own son off due to his gender.
"Yeah, he's just destructive, he can't help it. That's just how boys are. You know, because of the testosterone."
"He's four years old. His body hasn't started producing testosterone yet."
"No, I'm pretty sure boys always have testosterone, throughout childhood. You can see it in the way they act."
@Tattie AFAIK (and I may be wrong), boys *do* have testosterone throughout childhood ... but so do girls, and the levels are basically the same. It's produced in the adrenal glands.
(Personally, I've always been weirded out about how some people talk about boys that age, because it is *completely* alien to my own memories of being a boy. And, well, a lot of how people talk about testosterone in adults too.)
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And fuck the demonisation of a sex hormone anyway!
I've said it before: testosterone might make you hairy, horny, hungry, and hot, but it does not make you violent. It does not make you destructive. It does not make you anti-empathetic. Those are choices; gender behavioural norms that boys and then men are encouraged by social pressure to conform to, and may reject if they have the strength and the support to do so.
@Tattie Ugh. You're so right. Boys that age aren't producing testosterone in any amount that can be called a "spike" at all. And fuck demonizing/blaming testosterone for the poor behaviour of some people. Sexism and toxic masculinity are at fault. Sexism cuts both ways.
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The fact that "testosterone made him do it" is being projected onto a four year old boy is proof of how ridiculous the demonisation of a simple sex hormone has become. The lie is taking on a life of its own, free from any sort of scientific rationality.
Biological essentialism of gender is a complete load of balls, if you'll excuse me for that.
I am sympathetic to parents because I think you do have to come to terms with the limits of your control. You send your boy off to preschool and he's coming back smashing up all his toys. That's real.
But it's not biologically ordained, and you have the responsibility to counter the messages he's internalising from society at large. To set positive examples of adult behaviour, to maintain clear rules of what is acceptable and what isn't.
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And fuck the demonisation of a sex hormone anyway!
I've said it before: testosterone might make you hairy, horny, hungry, and hot, but it does not make you violent. It does not make you destructive. It does not make you anti-empathetic. Those are choices; gender behavioural norms that boys and then men are encouraged by social pressure to conform to, and may reject if they have the strength and the support to do so.
@Tattie And it doesn't even "make" everyone all of THOSE things. I still have no appetite. And I remember hearing two trans guys bemoaning that they were always cold and they hoped T would change this and it hasn't for either of them.
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And fuck the demonisation of a sex hormone anyway!
I've said it before: testosterone might make you hairy, horny, hungry, and hot, but it does not make you violent. It does not make you destructive. It does not make you anti-empathetic. Those are choices; gender behavioural norms that boys and then men are encouraged by social pressure to conform to, and may reject if they have the strength and the support to do so.
@Tattie Not pushing back on this per say, I think what I'm framing is a version of what you're saying.
It seems that some of what we attribute to "boys will be violent or aggressive" is more about how testosterone effects modes of communication.
And, if we would actually see four year old boys as communicating physically through aggression instead of with words it would be helpful for everyone.
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@Tattie nah, it has *always* been so. The stereotyping is deeply embedded in culture, this is just a handy justification not to do the work.
"snips and snails and puppy-dogs' tails."
@Colman it rises and falls. There was a push in the nineties and AIUI the seventies towards more "gender neutral" parenting. But we seem to be swinging away right now.
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@Tattie Not pushing back on this per say, I think what I'm framing is a version of what you're saying.
It seems that some of what we attribute to "boys will be violent or aggressive" is more about how testosterone effects modes of communication.
And, if we would actually see four year old boys as communicating physically through aggression instead of with words it would be helpful for everyone.
@Tattie There's interesting discussions around perimenopause and brain fog that underscore how hormones mess with that pathway between what's in our heads and how we react in the world.
It feels like so much of the shortcutting about "boys will be boys" is that we don't offer the patience prior to the onset of surging testosterone (puberty and beyond) to help boys communicate in the ways that are most articulate and then it becomes simply seen as normal.
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And fuck the demonisation of a sex hormone anyway!
I've said it before: testosterone might make you hairy, horny, hungry, and hot, but it does not make you violent. It does not make you destructive. It does not make you anti-empathetic. Those are choices; gender behavioural norms that boys and then men are encouraged by social pressure to conform to, and may reject if they have the strength and the support to do so.
@Tattie@eldritch.cafe It is prosocial, but it's up to you to be responsible. So I've recently adopted the opinion this is purely selection bias, because socialized people simply participate in the society more (duh). I am also wondering whether the studies that made any claims about negative social impact of T actually did a control for this bias. Because it's also well known that androgen deficiency messes with people of all sexes
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@Tattie testosterone made me hungry and horny all the time. But it did not make me a misogynist or a bad person.
I'm way hornier as a transgender woman on full feminizing HRT than I ever was trying to live as a dude with natural testosterone.
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@Tattie There's interesting discussions around perimenopause and brain fog that underscore how hormones mess with that pathway between what's in our heads and how we react in the world.
It feels like so much of the shortcutting about "boys will be boys" is that we don't offer the patience prior to the onset of surging testosterone (puberty and beyond) to help boys communicate in the ways that are most articulate and then it becomes simply seen as normal.
@Tattie I often think of how angry one can get as a child when adults won't listen. I see how animals get angry when the expected things don't happen. And...I have wanted to smash open an unopenable jar a few times.
It seems like aggression is often a result of this lack of skill, knowledge, experience or access and little boys often get rewarded quicker for being aggressive.
Which, I think I'm agreeing with you, reinforces inarticulate ways of communicating needs and that becomes gendered.
