@GrapheneOS@grapheneos.social @elly
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@elly @domi You can make whatever attacks you want on GrapheneOS. postmarketOS team members have contributed to making life miserable for two dozen people working on GrapheneOS. They haven't simply contributed to that in a small way but rather a large one by onboarding more people onto it and then never doing anything to walk it back or contain it. postmarketOS has a community that's highly hostile towards us and attacking us on numerous platforms. If it grows, so do the attacks on our project.
@GrapheneOS @domi But... I don't want to attack you (personally) or the project. I have no reason for it.
I bought a Pixel 6 back in 2022 *specifically* because of your project, stopped using it not because of something *you* did, but because I simply don't want Google's Services Frameworks on my phone at all (hence why notifications and other features weren't working). It would be exactly the same on LineageOS or other AOSP builds, it's entirely Google's fault (and my stubbornness).
Phone was also too bulky/heavy for me, it was genuinely hard to use because of my condition and caused wrist pain among other issues. If hardware you're working on would be much smaller/lighter, have a mSD and headphone jack then I would gladly buy it.
Once again, I'm somewhat adjacent to pmOS community but I genuinely never seen anyone badmouthing the project. The only thing I keep hearing at various events (in different communities) is "stay away from GrapheneOS's toxic community" (disclaimer: never been to your chats, so I won't comment whether that's true or not).
I genuinely think it's a "spiral of hatred" where X time ago someone messed up an interaction, things got sour, and over time it spiraled out of control. Then the whole Rossmann thing happened, you didn't know how to deal with it so you started being more and more defensive (especially after trauma you've experienced) and whenever people said anything remotely negative about the project, it felt like an attack to you.
I hope you realize that the sentence you wrote:
> Every time you make inaccurate claims about GrapheneOS, you get closer to us beginning a massive response including organizing our community against the project as has been done by the postmarketOS community towards GrapheneOS with endless attacks on our team.
Perfectly describes what I just said. Someone threw a rock at us, we threw a rock back. Except that rock hit the wrong person, so now we have two people throwing rocks at us. Rinse and repeat, I hope you will see what I see. -
@GrapheneOS @domi But... I don't want to attack you (personally) or the project. I have no reason for it.
I bought a Pixel 6 back in 2022 *specifically* because of your project, stopped using it not because of something *you* did, but because I simply don't want Google's Services Frameworks on my phone at all (hence why notifications and other features weren't working). It would be exactly the same on LineageOS or other AOSP builds, it's entirely Google's fault (and my stubbornness).
Phone was also too bulky/heavy for me, it was genuinely hard to use because of my condition and caused wrist pain among other issues. If hardware you're working on would be much smaller/lighter, have a mSD and headphone jack then I would gladly buy it.
Once again, I'm somewhat adjacent to pmOS community but I genuinely never seen anyone badmouthing the project. The only thing I keep hearing at various events (in different communities) is "stay away from GrapheneOS's toxic community" (disclaimer: never been to your chats, so I won't comment whether that's true or not).
I genuinely think it's a "spiral of hatred" where X time ago someone messed up an interaction, things got sour, and over time it spiraled out of control. Then the whole Rossmann thing happened, you didn't know how to deal with it so you started being more and more defensive (especially after trauma you've experienced) and whenever people said anything remotely negative about the project, it felt like an attack to you.
I hope you realize that the sentence you wrote:
> Every time you make inaccurate claims about GrapheneOS, you get closer to us beginning a massive response including organizing our community against the project as has been done by the postmarketOS community towards GrapheneOS with endless attacks on our team.
Perfectly describes what I just said. Someone threw a rock at us, we threw a rock back. Except that rock hit the wrong person, so now we have two people throwing rocks at us. Rinse and repeat, I hope you will see what I see.@elly @domi Multiple postmarketOS developers have engaged in blatant bullying and harassment towards our team. As long as they're still involved with postmarketOS and have not acknowledged that they were spreading harassment content and posting their own then that's not settled and is an active topic. There have also been recent personal attacks by several postmarketOS developers/contributors including craftyguy. This does not date back to 2023 and is not minor. We plan to make a post about it.
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@elly @domi Multiple postmarketOS developers have engaged in blatant bullying and harassment towards our team. As long as they're still involved with postmarketOS and have not acknowledged that they were spreading harassment content and posting their own then that's not settled and is an active topic. There have also been recent personal attacks by several postmarketOS developers/contributors including craftyguy. This does not date back to 2023 and is not minor. We plan to make a post about it.
@elly @domi We've posted accurate information about postmarketOS and also accurate information about what people there have done towards us. We haven't engaged in any bullying or harassment. Our community is not harassing people or raiding rooms. We're not posting videos with character assassination based around false claims. The attacks are very one sided. You somehow consider us posting our take on postmarketOS and the claims you make about GrapheneOS to be on the same level as harassment.
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@elly @domi We've posted accurate information about postmarketOS and also accurate information about what people there have done towards us. We haven't engaged in any bullying or harassment. Our community is not harassing people or raiding rooms. We're not posting videos with character assassination based around false claims. The attacks are very one sided. You somehow consider us posting our take on postmarketOS and the claims you make about GrapheneOS to be on the same level as harassment.
> why notifications and other features weren't working
Notifications work fine without sandboxed Google Play in many apps supporting using their own push or UnifiedPush including multiple email apps, messaging apps (Signal/Molly, Element / Element X for Matrix, WhatsApp, Conversations for XMPP and others) and many others.
Tap-to-pay also does work fine on GrapheneOS even though Google Pay bans it. There are other implementations including ones working without Google Play.
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> why notifications and other features weren't working
Notifications work fine without sandboxed Google Play in many apps supporting using their own push or UnifiedPush including multiple email apps, messaging apps (Signal/Molly, Element / Element X for Matrix, WhatsApp, Conversations for XMPP and others) and many others.
Tap-to-pay also does work fine on GrapheneOS even though Google Pay bans it. There are other implementations including ones working without Google Play.
@elly @domi Users in the US don't have a tap-to-pay option on GrapheneOS itself. Users in the UK and EU have multiple options available for it including at least in the EU multiple which work without Google Play.
There's a large open source app ecosystem which works without Google Play and many mainstream apps too. It's still a large app ecosystem.
There's hardware-based virtualization now for non-native apps now which is their focus for it while our focus will be using it for native apps too.
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@elly @domi Users in the US don't have a tap-to-pay option on GrapheneOS itself. Users in the UK and EU have multiple options available for it including at least in the EU multiple which work without Google Play.
There's a large open source app ecosystem which works without Google Play and many mainstream apps too. It's still a large app ecosystem.
There's hardware-based virtualization now for non-native apps now which is their focus for it while our focus will be using it for native apps too.
> stay away from GrapheneOS's toxic community
> never been to your chats, so I won't comment whether that's true or not
It's the postmarketOS community and many other parts of the open source community which are toxic. It's their project members and community members heavily participating in bullying and harassment not only towards our founder and team but also our community. Our community chat rooms are heavily targeted with endless raids including from YOUR toxic community.
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> stay away from GrapheneOS's toxic community
> never been to your chats, so I won't comment whether that's true or not
It's the postmarketOS community and many other parts of the open source community which are toxic. It's their project members and community members heavily participating in bullying and harassment not only towards our founder and team but also our community. Our community chat rooms are heavily targeted with endless raids including from YOUR toxic community.
@elly @domi Claiming our team and community are toxic is DARVO attacks. Your community is raiding our rooms, engaging in endless personal attacks and libelous fabricated stories but somehow it's our community not doing those things towards you folks which is the toxic one. How is that meant to work? These false claims go right along with the claims that our founder is insane, delusional, etc. and are pervasive in the postmarketOS community and elsewhere. Our community isn't doing that, yours is.
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@elly @domi Claiming our team and community are toxic is DARVO attacks. Your community is raiding our rooms, engaging in endless personal attacks and libelous fabricated stories but somehow it's our community not doing those things towards you folks which is the toxic one. How is that meant to work? These false claims go right along with the claims that our founder is insane, delusional, etc. and are pervasive in the postmarketOS community and elsewhere. Our community isn't doing that, yours is.
@GrapheneOS @elly @domi looks like pmOS has a code of conduct team. if you've reported the raids and the community members behind the raids haven't received any repercussions, I would definitely start mentally putting pmOS in the "best stay away" category -
@GrapheneOS @elly @domi looks like pmOS has a code of conduct team. if you've reported the raids and the community members behind the raids haven't received any repercussions, I would definitely start mentally putting pmOS in the "best stay away" category@mei @domi @elly @GrapheneOS As far as I know we have not received anything like that so far.
I am also not aware of any team member actively raiding GrapheneOS chats. If you have proof it would be nice to link to them because so far it's mostly been "trust me bro" (no offense intended).
Take care -
R ActivityRelay shared this topic
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@mei @domi @elly @GrapheneOS As far as I know we have not received anything like that so far.
I am also not aware of any team member actively raiding GrapheneOS chats. If you have proof it would be nice to link to them because so far it's mostly been "trust me bro" (no offense intended).
Take care@mei @GrapheneOS @domi @elly note that I have PMs disabled on fediverse, if you want to share these in PM please do so to "f_" on irc.oftc.net or @funderscore:postmarketos.org -
@mei @GrapheneOS @domi @elly note that I have PMs disabled on fediverse, if you want to share these in PM please do so to "f_" on irc.oftc.net or @funderscore:postmarketos.org@GrapheneOS @domi @elly @mei (I am *not* part of the CoC team, but I can reach out to them as needed)
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@GrapheneOS @domi @elly @mei (I am *not* part of the CoC team, but I can reach out to them as needed)@GrapheneOS @domi @elly @mei you can also email coc@postmarketos.org by the way, that'd be the preferred option.
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@mei @domi @elly @GrapheneOS As far as I know we have not received anything like that so far.
I am also not aware of any team member actively raiding GrapheneOS chats. If you have proof it would be nice to link to them because so far it's mostly been "trust me bro" (no offense intended).
Take care> I am also not aware of any team member actively raiding GrapheneOS chats.
We said the postmarketOS has done that not the postmarketOS team.
> If you have proof it would be nice to link to them
We do have it.
> so far it's mostly been "trust me bro"
Multiple people on the postmarketOS team have seen what one of them posted on Twitter along with many others. There's no point claiming that it never happened.
We're talking to @ariadne about it now rather than here.
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> I am also not aware of any team member actively raiding GrapheneOS chats.
We said the postmarketOS has done that not the postmarketOS team.
> If you have proof it would be nice to link to them
We do have it.
> so far it's mostly been "trust me bro"
Multiple people on the postmarketOS team have seen what one of them posted on Twitter along with many others. There's no point claiming that it never happened.
We're talking to @ariadne about it now rather than here.
@fun @domi @elly @mei @ariadne We removed some of our posts here to talk about it privately instead which we are doing and if you stop making accusations towards us then we'll stop posting about it here. We're entirely capable of finding and posting an archive of the deleted posts on Twitter if people are denying it happened, but as far as we know the person who did it is not denying that it happened. As a general rule we're not going to report a project itself due to bad experiences with it.
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> I am also not aware of any team member actively raiding GrapheneOS chats.
We said the postmarketOS has done that not the postmarketOS team.
> If you have proof it would be nice to link to them
We do have it.
> so far it's mostly been "trust me bro"
Multiple people on the postmarketOS team have seen what one of them posted on Twitter along with many others. There's no point claiming that it never happened.
We're talking to @ariadne about it now rather than here.
@GrapheneOS @domi @elly @mei @ariadne
I'm glad you're talking to @ariadne about this. She's nice.
I hope both projects can collaborate on things one day, I think that would be very beneficial tech-wise, as you (GrapheneOS team) have a lot of insights on security and such for example, so we can share notes etc...
Take care of yourself! -
@fun @domi @elly @mei @ariadne We removed some of our posts here to talk about it privately instead which we are doing and if you stop making accusations towards us then we'll stop posting about it here. We're entirely capable of finding and posting an archive of the deleted posts on Twitter if people are denying it happened, but as far as we know the person who did it is not denying that it happened. As a general rule we're not going to report a project itself due to bad experiences with it.
@fun @domi @elly @mei @ariadne Fedora addressed bullying/libel we reported by having 2 people remove posts. GNOME simply ignored our reports.
Here's Mozilla:
> The actions that are alleged to have violated the CPG are:
>
> Disruptive behaviour: calling that people “allow nazis to contribute to your project”
>
> Personal attacks: accusing other people of swatting you and other engineers.Those "other people" weren't their project members, just to clarify.
> should be addressed to the police
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@GrapheneOS @domi @elly @mei @ariadne
I'm glad you're talking to @ariadne about this. She's nice.
I hope both projects can collaborate on things one day, I think that would be very beneficial tech-wise, as you (GrapheneOS team) have a lot of insights on security and such for example, so we can share notes etc...
Take care of yourself!@GrapheneOS @ariadne @domi @elly @mei I hate drama and I'm sure you hate it too so if this can be solved well I'm all for it
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@fun @domi @elly @mei @ariadne We removed some of our posts here to talk about it privately instead which we are doing and if you stop making accusations towards us then we'll stop posting about it here. We're entirely capable of finding and posting an archive of the deleted posts on Twitter if people are denying it happened, but as far as we know the person who did it is not denying that it happened. As a general rule we're not going to report a project itself due to bad experiences with it.
@GrapheneOS @domi @elly @mei That's nice of you ^^
Yeah perhaps avoid fingerpointing in Twitter at this point in time, I want this solved peacefully and I'm sure you want this too. Fingerpointing may just make things worse. -
@fun @domi @elly @mei @ariadne Fedora addressed bullying/libel we reported by having 2 people remove posts. GNOME simply ignored our reports.
Here's Mozilla:
> The actions that are alleged to have violated the CPG are:
>
> Disruptive behaviour: calling that people “allow nazis to contribute to your project”
>
> Personal attacks: accusing other people of swatting you and other engineers.Those "other people" weren't their project members, just to clarify.
> should be addressed to the police
@GrapheneOS @domi @elly @mei @ariadne If there's anything else you need from me, I accept PMs from irc/matrix (irc preferred but matrix also works), so you know where to find me -
@GrapheneOS @domi @elly @mei That's nice of you ^^
Yeah perhaps avoid fingerpointing in Twitter at this point in time, I want this solved peacefully and I'm sure you want this too. Fingerpointing may just make things worse.@fun @domi @elly @mei We replied to this thread because the original post made inaccurate claims about AOSP and projects based on it including GrapheneOS. We then saw many more attacks on GrapheneOS claiming it's non-viable, a dead end, not doing any valuable work, etc. so we replied to a few of those. Since people felt like attacking our team to promote another project, we brought up an unresolved situation which is not just about several threads on Twitter in 2023 but more recent things too.
