Should citizens of your country that live elsewhere have the right to vote?
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@evan I would say no.
My rationale: Who am I as a resident and citizen of another country to decide what the residents of my other citizenship country wish/want. I don’t pay taxes there, I don’t participate in their active life, etc. For all intents and purposes, they are foreigners
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@evan No, but countries should be abolished anyways so this shouldn't matter.
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@evan given it's nigh on impossible to renounce US citizenship and stop paying taxes.
The argument is that the rich would flee the country.
To which I ask, for where?
The Emirates? Where citizenship is bought and can be removed at the whim of a royal? To China, where the Politburo understands you keep the rich on the shortest of leashes? To the UK, who opened their doors to Russian gangsters who shiv, poison, and defenestrate?
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@evan no, but all people resident in an area should be able to vote (which is almost true in Scotland except for prisoners and Westminster elections)
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@evan I’m a Brazilian immigrant* and not only we can but we have to - vote is mandatory in Brazil. I only need to vote in presidential elections though.
* expat is a problematic word
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@evan though only in national elections, not local ones.
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@evan I’m a Brazilian immigrant* and not only we can but we have to - vote is mandatory in Brazil. I only need to vote in presidential elections though.
* expat is a problematic word
@fabio say "emigrant" then. If you're living outside of Brazil, you're not an immigrant to Brazil.
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@evan I like how Germany does things. Not only can Germans who live abroad vote, European (non-German) citizens can also vote in Germany for local parliaments. They can also vote in the European Parliament elections.
I would love it if non-European citizens living in Germany had the same possibility. I also think it would be good if they could vote at state level.
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@fabio say "emigrant" then. If you're living outside of Brazil, you're not an immigrant to Brazil.
@evan Good point!
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@fabio say "emigrant" then. If you're living outside of Brazil, you're not an immigrant to Brazil.
@fabio I intentionally chose "expatriate" as an accurate and clear term for describing citizens who live outside their nation of citizenship.
"Expatriate" and "emigrant" are almost synonyms, but "emigrant" is less well known and suggests the immediate aftermath of leaving.
I considered "overseas citizens", "voters abroad", and other terms, but I settled on expatriate because it's clear and accurate.
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@fabio I intentionally chose "expatriate" as an accurate and clear term for describing citizens who live outside their nation of citizenship.
"Expatriate" and "emigrant" are almost synonyms, but "emigrant" is less well known and suggests the immediate aftermath of leaving.
I considered "overseas citizens", "voters abroad", and other terms, but I settled on expatriate because it's clear and accurate.
@fabio I am aware of the concern you expressed.
People from richer countries living in poorer countries often have the luxury of defining themselves by their relationship with their home country, so they call themselves "expatriates" and expect others to do so too.
People from poorer countries don't have that luxury. They are defined by people in their new home country, so they are called "immigrants". Association with their country of origin is highlighted as a sign of unworthiness.
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@fabio I am aware of the concern you expressed.
People from richer countries living in poorer countries often have the luxury of defining themselves by their relationship with their home country, so they call themselves "expatriates" and expect others to do so too.
People from poorer countries don't have that luxury. They are defined by people in their new home country, so they are called "immigrants". Association with their country of origin is highlighted as a sign of unworthiness.
@fabio in this poll, I am specifically talking about the relationship with the country of origin. We are not talking about how people are viewed and defined in their country of residence.
There are other terms, like diaspora, used for this kind of population.
So, I'm OK with using "expatriate". It represents an unfair power dynamic in some situations, but not this one.
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@fabio say "emigrant" then. If you're living outside of Brazil, you're not an immigrant to Brazil.
@evan @fabio Fabio is right. Expatriate is a term that spun out of white colonizers living in the other parts of the world, where they have no intention of becoming a part of the society, including accepting citizenship.
Would most people call Jamaican temporary foreign workers on Canadian farms that are treated as slave labour "expats"?
When I went to China to work, was I a Canadian expat? Would I be considered one from the lens of a Chinese national vs a Canadian? The place where I was born is a part of China now. I don't even know what my rights are anymore with regards to my birth place. I'm a Canadian citizen.
Expatriate is a term that's drowning in class, racism, and white colonial history. Perhaps you should reconsider its use.
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@evan I like how Germany does things. Not only can Germans who live abroad vote, European (non-German) citizens can also vote in Germany for local parliaments. They can also vote in the European Parliament elections.
I would love it if non-European citizens living in Germany had the same possibility. I also think it would be good if they could vote at state level.
@heluecht @evan The rules are consistent across the EU with respect to EU citizens' voting in other EU countries for MEP elections; with the added wrinkle that you can vote for a candidate in your country of residence or in your home country, but not both
Local and national election rules are much more of a mixed bag although it's common for EU citizens to at least be given local election (county/land/etc.) privileges.
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@evan @fabio Fabio is right. Expatriate is a term that spun out of white colonizers living in the other parts of the world, where they have no intention of becoming a part of the society, including accepting citizenship.
Would most people call Jamaican temporary foreign workers on Canadian farms that are treated as slave labour "expats"?
When I went to China to work, was I a Canadian expat? Would I be considered one from the lens of a Chinese national vs a Canadian? The place where I was born is a part of China now. I don't even know what my rights are anymore with regards to my birth place. I'm a Canadian citizen.
Expatriate is a term that's drowning in class, racism, and white colonial history. Perhaps you should reconsider its use.
@evan @fabio And further down the thread to:
https://cosocial.ca/@evan/115956282132331931"Country of origin" also gets really messy if you have multiple citizenships and grew up in different places. Or if some citizenships no longer exist (like my birth place).
A clearer, not-problematic question: "Should people who do not permanently reside in their country of citizenship have the right to vote?"
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@evan @fabio Fabio is right. Expatriate is a term that spun out of white colonizers living in the other parts of the world, where they have no intention of becoming a part of the society, including accepting citizenship.
Would most people call Jamaican temporary foreign workers on Canadian farms that are treated as slave labour "expats"?
When I went to China to work, was I a Canadian expat? Would I be considered one from the lens of a Chinese national vs a Canadian? The place where I was born is a part of China now. I don't even know what my rights are anymore with regards to my birth place. I'm a Canadian citizen.
Expatriate is a term that's drowning in class, racism, and white colonial history. Perhaps you should reconsider its use.
I worked in other countries and adopted the expat label, without thinking, frankly just because everyone else was using it.
After some reflection I think that calling myself a "guest worker" was more appropriate. So that is whatI started using toward the end.
Same idea but a bit less formal than "temporary foreign worker".
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@fabio I intentionally chose "expatriate" as an accurate and clear term for describing citizens who live outside their nation of citizenship.
"Expatriate" and "emigrant" are almost synonyms, but "emigrant" is less well known and suggests the immediate aftermath of leaving.
I considered "overseas citizens", "voters abroad", and other terms, but I settled on expatriate because it's clear and accurate.
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@evan @fabio And further down the thread to:
https://cosocial.ca/@evan/115956282132331931"Country of origin" also gets really messy if you have multiple citizenships and grew up in different places. Or if some citizenships no longer exist (like my birth place).
A clearer, not-problematic question: "Should people who do not permanently reside in their country of citizenship have the right to vote?"
@mayintoronto @evan @fabio Just chiming in that I also agree that expat is a bad word and you should consider not using it.
I call myself an immigrant from Brazil. People call themseves immigrants from a country, the government refers to us refers to us as immigrants.
We’re not expats.
Thanks for coming to my talk.
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I worked in other countries and adopted the expat label, without thinking, frankly just because everyone else was using it.
After some reflection I think that calling myself a "guest worker" was more appropriate. So that is whatI started using toward the end.
Same idea but a bit less formal than "temporary foreign worker".
@RuthODay2 For context, the Temporary Foreign Worker program here in Canada is a highly problematic one, where workers are brought in with the right to abode tied to your employer and there's no path to permanent residence.
UN Special Rapporteur dubbed it: a "Breeding Ground’ for Contemporary Forms of Slavery
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/un-report-abuse-temporary-foreign-workers-canada-1.7293495I brought it up because Evan and Fabio are also in Canada.
