Should citizens of your country that live elsewhere have the right to vote?
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@renata @mayintoronto @fabio Expatriate is a problem in a context, and I am not using it in that context.
@evan @renata @mayintoronto For the record, I know. It wasn’t my intention to cause any drama and I enjoy the polls a lot.
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@mayintoronto @fabio Great, you should definitely make that poll!
@evan I'm asking you to reconsider your position on the term "expatriate", and to perhaps refrain from using it in this context in the future.
I don't care about the poll itself, since I know that editing is not an option.
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@evan @fabio Fabio is right. Expatriate is a term that spun out of white colonizers living in the other parts of the world, where they have no intention of becoming a part of the society, including accepting citizenship.
Would most people call Jamaican temporary foreign workers on Canadian farms that are treated as slave labour "expats"?
When I went to China to work, was I a Canadian expat? Would I be considered one from the lens of a Chinese national vs a Canadian? The place where I was born is a part of China now. I don't even know what my rights are anymore with regards to my birth place. I'm a Canadian citizen.
Expatriate is a term that's drowning in class, racism, and white colonial history. Perhaps you should reconsider its use.
@mayintoronto @fabio In Canada, some people who work and live abroad are called "Canadians abroad":
https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/living-abroad
I also like "snowbirds" for the very specific set of people who live abroad only during the winter.
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@mayintoronto @fabio In Canada, some people who work and live abroad are called "Canadians abroad":
https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/living-abroad
I also like "snowbirds" for the very specific set of people who live abroad only during the winter.
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@mayintoronto @fabio Duly noted!
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@mayintoronto @fabio Duly noted!
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@evan @renata @mayintoronto For the record, I know. It wasn’t my intention to cause any drama and I enjoy the polls a lot.
@fabio @renata @mayintoronto No hard feelings! It's an interesting discussion to have.
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@mayintoronto @evan @fabio Just chiming in that I also agree that expat is a bad word and you should consider not using it.
I call myself an immigrant from Brazil. People call themseves immigrants from a country, the government refers to us refers to us as immigrants.
We’re not expats.
Thanks for coming to my talk.
@renata @mayintoronto @fabio also, as far as I can tell with some quick searching, Brazilian emigrants are in fact called "immigrants" even in Brazil. There's definitely a good research paper in that!
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@evan
I'm a kiwi (from Aotearoa New Zealand) living in Sweden.I am not an expat, or expatriate citizen. I'm a migrant, something other white folk get upset about when I say "yes, I'm just another migrant over here", when they don't think I count because I'm white, and therefore the right kind.
Expat is just another colonial term.
@hypostase Feel free to substitute "migrant" or "emigrant" for "expatriate" in the poll if that helps you answer the question better.
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Enough people complained about my use of "expatriate" in this poll that I changed the question.
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@renata @mayintoronto @fabio also, as far as I can tell with some quick searching, Brazilian emigrants are in fact called "immigrants" even in Brazil. There's definitely a good research paper in that!
@evan @mayintoronto @fabio There’s the word emigrante in Portuguese but I don’t think people use it anymore.
A lot of similar words that were used when I was still in school fell into disuse because language is dynamic like that (and that makes me old)
It’s usually two very similar words that mean different things, people keep using one of them more than the other, and the less used eventually gets replaced.
Fabio can talk about that better than me because he studied communications.
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Enough people complained about my use of "expatriate" in this poll that I changed the question.
@evan
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@hypostase Feel free to substitute "migrant" or "emigrant" for "expatriate" in the poll if that helps you answer the question better.
@evan
It doesn't.I have complicated perspectives on voting, its uses and limitations.
More importantly, the use of expatriate in the question encourages a particular perspective that I'm very much opposed to, and necessarily skews the results.
If my perspective on voting wasn't complicated, I'd lean towards banning those who consider themselves expatriate from voting anywhere.
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@evan
It doesn't.I have complicated perspectives on voting, its uses and limitations.
More importantly, the use of expatriate in the question encourages a particular perspective that I'm very much opposed to, and necessarily skews the results.
If my perspective on voting wasn't complicated, I'd lean towards banning those who consider themselves expatriate from voting anywhere.
@evan
Though I do now see the question has been updated. -
@renata @mayintoronto @fabio also, as far as I can tell with some quick searching, Brazilian emigrants are in fact called "immigrants" even in Brazil. There's definitely a good research paper in that!
@evan I personally use “immigrant” on purpose since I’m white-presenting and work in tech. It’s an attempt to buck the trend of using this word for a particular kind of immigration (the kind some people don’t want).
I emigrated from Brazil because I wanted to and I acknowledge I had the privilege to do it. Many people in my position would call themselves something else.
Again, this is not meant to cause drama or unnecessary discussion, it’s a personal position!
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@evan
Even with the updated question it's complicated.I hold dual citizenship and live in a third country.
One country requires that I set foot there at least once every three years, which matches the election cycle, the other that I maintain registration.
Generally I'm in favour of as much engagement as possible for all people connected to a nation. If some are to be excluded from voting, it seems reasonable to base that on engagement if they are otherwise no longer present.
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@evan I personally use “immigrant” on purpose since I’m white-presenting and work in tech. It’s an attempt to buck the trend of using this word for a particular kind of immigration (the kind some people don’t want).
I emigrated from Brazil because I wanted to and I acknowledge I had the privilege to do it. Many people in my position would call themselves something else.
Again, this is not meant to cause drama or unnecessary discussion, it’s a personal position!
@fabio Do you use "immigrant" here in Canada? I've never heard a Brazilian here call themselves an expatriate. I've also never seen anyone use anything but "immigrant" in French to describe themselves.
Do you use "imigrante" to describe yourself in Brazil?
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@evan @mayintoronto @fabio There’s the word emigrante in Portuguese but I don’t think people use it anymore.
A lot of similar words that were used when I was still in school fell into disuse because language is dynamic like that (and that makes me old)
It’s usually two very similar words that mean different things, people keep using one of them more than the other, and the less used eventually gets replaced.
Fabio can talk about that better than me because he studied communications.
@renata @mayintoronto @fabio So, when you're in Brazil, how do you talk about brasileiros no externo ? I think it's a pretty big population, about 5m people? That's a big percentage of the total citizenship, around 200m, right? Is it an identity that you embrace, or do you mostly say "I live in Canada" or "I'm Canadian"?
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@fabio Do you use "immigrant" here in Canada? I've never heard a Brazilian here call themselves an expatriate. I've also never seen anyone use anything but "immigrant" in French to describe themselves.
Do you use "imigrante" to describe yourself in Brazil?
@evan Yes to all! There’s also a thing about “imigrante” in Brazil that requires some explanation:
Brazil is not as diverse as it thinks it is - especially compared to Canada. There’s a certain fascination with foreigners there, everyone asks dozens of questions. It becomes a bit of a status symbol because it validates the idea that Brazil is good, actually - so much so that some people *choose* to live there.
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@evan Yes to all! There’s also a thing about “imigrante” in Brazil that requires some explanation:
Brazil is not as diverse as it thinks it is - especially compared to Canada. There’s a certain fascination with foreigners there, everyone asks dozens of questions. It becomes a bit of a status symbol because it validates the idea that Brazil is good, actually - so much so that some people *choose* to live there.
@fabio I meant the use of "imigrante" to describe Brazilian citizens living in other countries.
