Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
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@semitones @alice I support this message. Alice for President!
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@alice I'm a man who has gotten the same feedback. I think my tendency to listen is a strength and I'm not interested in getting ahead by running my mouth.
@gneilyo 🫂
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
I regret that it is necessary to footnote that.
I don't say that I regret you did, nor that I regret "you thought" that, because needing to do that it goes right to the heart of the main point.
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@alice I think you are right.
Men need to unlearn this when we leave the schoolyard and enter the adult world.
I think part of the resistance to learning this is imposter syndrome. Young men are full of fears they often cannot share. Those fears get paved over with hostility and domineering, which they pretend is strength. By the time they end up in a meeting with female peers, they have an inescapable need to prove themselves. Their inexperience leads them to believe respect and admiration is a zero-sum game. At that point, any chance of being a good team mate with women is practically lost.
It doesn't have to be that way. But, I'd say it usually is.
I've seen men who respect women in meetings. I learned to do it better, from them. It can be learned, and then things are so much better. A team fighting itself doesn't win very often. More importantly, life is shitty when it's full of conflict, and much more joyful when everyone feels good about their part in a team effort. The team wins together.
@hoco I agree, and I was just planning to make a post about the toxicity of the zero-sum game mentality. Thanks for reminding me that I should go write that now
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@alice Wait, you were a tech exec? But... you're capable, smart, and have good takes. You also seem like a really decent person who cares about others. How did you last even five minutes in the churning gyre of madness that is the executive circle of hell?
@Legit_Spaghetti I have a background in psychology, business intelligence, and data science, but more importantly, people seem to like me.
So I slowly rose from business analyst, to head of business intelligence, head of data science & analytics, and CDO roles.
I hate interacting with most other non-ICs, especially in sales and marketing (as they're some of the least ethical—and most casually sexist/homophobic—people I've regularly had to work with).
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@alice I'm a man who has gotten the same feedback. I think my tendency to listen is a strength and I'm not interested in getting ahead by running my mouth.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice Sorry to hear about your shitty time at work.
A lifetime working in the helping professions - including with folks who might politely be described as "challenging" - has given me an acute nose for the type of person (usually but not always a man!) who only respects dominance behaviours, and walks all over those who don't display them. If that's the type of person I'm dealing with, that's how they're gonna be treated - in and outside of work!
But it must be a lot harder for women.
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@semitones @alice Are y'all hiring? :3
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@semitones @alice I support this message. Alice for President!
@scottwilson lol, I couldn't to much worse then the current asshole!
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@gneilyo lol, indeed.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice This is definitely a thing, but men talk over me more post-transition than they did pre-transition, even though I'm significantly more confident and assertive these days.
I think men, even timid men, are perceived to be assertive, and women are not. Women can compensate for this by becoming particularly assertive but I think you have to actually be more assertive than most guys to be perceived equally. And then you're in danger of being labelled bossy.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice Oh that is an interesting observation and I’m sure it holds truth. But also, I *am* being talked over more now I am femme presenting. And I haven’t suddenly become more demure.
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@alice Oh that is an interesting observation and I’m sure it holds truth. But also, I *am* being talked over more now I am femme presenting. And I haven’t suddenly become more demure.
@h5e yeah, I think folx' perception of who is "safe" to talk over plays a big part too. There's a real pecking order to it. No one tends to interrupt the CEOs for instance, but the C-level folx will talk over the "lower ranks" like they aren't there.
Of course, my experience is from a bunch of (mostly) small-medium tech startups, with a few large tech companies as well. Other industries may be different/better (but I wouldn't bet a dollar on it).
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice
In my experience, many men actually expect women to just listen to them/validate them and it's different from just talking over other men.For many men this just seems to be how they think you "talk to women".
No intentional malice, just having it normalised so much, that it would take active effort to question it and realise what is happening.
Since pushback is rare, it's easier to just find another woman to talk to and avoid women who don't play along.1/
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@h5e yeah, I think folx' perception of who is "safe" to talk over plays a big part too. There's a real pecking order to it. No one tends to interrupt the CEOs for instance, but the C-level folx will talk over the "lower ranks" like they aren't there.
Of course, my experience is from a bunch of (mostly) small-medium tech startups, with a few large tech companies as well. Other industries may be different/better (but I wouldn't bet a dollar on it).
@alice yes that may be. It’s… well, it’s painful, but interesting too. Because I’m sure much of it is subconscious. For my example, this is the same company, with the same people, some of whom I am sure respect me and what I have to say, whom I have worked with for almost ten years… and yet
(Edit for timeline clarification: I have been out for a little over 3 years)
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice And when you’re assertive as a woman they call you aggressive
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice Mansplaining is just what men do to other men ... all the time.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice And in my experience, the ones that are "the best" at this sort of BS are the stupidest ones in the room and get promoted first. I think it was Will Rogers that said that everyone rises to their own level of incompetence. Every time I had to sit thru a management meeting, that was proven. The best part of being retired is that I don't have to deal with those morons any more.
