Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice Sorry to hear about your shitty time at work.
A lifetime working in the helping professions - including with folks who might politely be described as "challenging" - has given me an acute nose for the type of person (usually but not always a man!) who only respects dominance behaviours, and walks all over those who don't display them. If that's the type of person I'm dealing with, that's how they're gonna be treated - in and outside of work!
But it must be a lot harder for women.
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@semitones @alice Are y'all hiring? :3
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@semitones @alice I support this message. Alice for President!
@scottwilson lol, I couldn't to much worse then the current asshole!
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@gneilyo lol, indeed.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice This is definitely a thing, but men talk over me more post-transition than they did pre-transition, even though I'm significantly more confident and assertive these days.
I think men, even timid men, are perceived to be assertive, and women are not. Women can compensate for this by becoming particularly assertive but I think you have to actually be more assertive than most guys to be perceived equally. And then you're in danger of being labelled bossy.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice Oh that is an interesting observation and I’m sure it holds truth. But also, I *am* being talked over more now I am femme presenting. And I haven’t suddenly become more demure.
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@alice Oh that is an interesting observation and I’m sure it holds truth. But also, I *am* being talked over more now I am femme presenting. And I haven’t suddenly become more demure.
@h5e yeah, I think folx' perception of who is "safe" to talk over plays a big part too. There's a real pecking order to it. No one tends to interrupt the CEOs for instance, but the C-level folx will talk over the "lower ranks" like they aren't there.
Of course, my experience is from a bunch of (mostly) small-medium tech startups, with a few large tech companies as well. Other industries may be different/better (but I wouldn't bet a dollar on it).
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice
In my experience, many men actually expect women to just listen to them/validate them and it's different from just talking over other men.For many men this just seems to be how they think you "talk to women".
No intentional malice, just having it normalised so much, that it would take active effort to question it and realise what is happening.
Since pushback is rare, it's easier to just find another woman to talk to and avoid women who don't play along.1/
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@h5e yeah, I think folx' perception of who is "safe" to talk over plays a big part too. There's a real pecking order to it. No one tends to interrupt the CEOs for instance, but the C-level folx will talk over the "lower ranks" like they aren't there.
Of course, my experience is from a bunch of (mostly) small-medium tech startups, with a few large tech companies as well. Other industries may be different/better (but I wouldn't bet a dollar on it).
@alice yes that may be. It’s… well, it’s painful, but interesting too. Because I’m sure much of it is subconscious. For my example, this is the same company, with the same people, some of whom I am sure respect me and what I have to say, whom I have worked with for almost ten years… and yet
(Edit for timeline clarification: I have been out for a little over 3 years)
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice And when you’re assertive as a woman they call you aggressive
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice Mansplaining is just what men do to other men ... all the time.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice And in my experience, the ones that are "the best" at this sort of BS are the stupidest ones in the room and get promoted first. I think it was Will Rogers that said that everyone rises to their own level of incompetence. Every time I had to sit thru a management meeting, that was proven. The best part of being retired is that I don't have to deal with those morons any more.
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice the flip side of that, though, is if you're judged as being "too assertive" you'll get labeled a bitch and also ignored.
I've gotten labeled a bitch a lot
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@alice
In my experience, many men actually expect women to just listen to them/validate them and it's different from just talking over other men.For many men this just seems to be how they think you "talk to women".
No intentional malice, just having it normalised so much, that it would take active effort to question it and realise what is happening.
Since pushback is rare, it's easier to just find another woman to talk to and avoid women who don't play along.1/
@alice
You can probably find a lot of accounts, that have a suspiciously high rate of how many female to male presenting accounts they talk to(and probably get blocked by).They know on some level, that they couldn't talk to other men in this way, because the conversation is one-sided, only taking their needs into account.
2/2
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Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice@lgbtqia.space "You're not being obnoxious enough."
Obnoxiousness is a hell of a thing to respect. But there's an awful lot of cultural conditioning for men to be loud and obnoxious and dominating.
"But this is how you get all eyes in the room on you!"
Dude. My dude. The eyes I want on me are NOT those of the people who gravitate to the loudest in the room. I want the people who think. -
Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...
"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"
In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.
The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.
I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.
Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.
¹ not all men
@alice I wonder whether it's OK to say that they may have been giving you well-intentioned advice about how the game is played, despite the fact that the game fucking blows. And it assumes that you want to play the same game that they're playing, which is again a huge assumption. Having been on both the assertive and less-assertive side, the advice might not be bad advice... if you want to follow their definition of success (which is assumed to be everyone's - more money and/or power). And I suspect many would choose to play a different game, if they thought one was available. But assertiveness/confidence is almost the only character/personality trait that is selected for, as you get into the upper echelons (again, not an endorsement from my end, just an observation that feels true-ish). Reminds me of this lovely meme I just saw: https://mastodon.social/@wildsown/115999715177871594
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@alice As a generally soft-spoken ¹, I see the same things pretty often. It's hard to demonstrate that yes, I actually do know wtf I'm talking about.
Could you imagine how successful some companies would be if this mediocrity were replaced?
@north@xn--8r9a.com @alice@lgbtqia.space Walk softly, and carry hard facts.
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@alice one thing I've noticed is how some people never pause to give anyone else even a chance to speak. As if there's a filibuster that needs to be kept going uninterrupted or something. And if you don't counter what they're saying when is wrong they consider you to have agreed whatever incorrect statement it is. Quite tiring.
Like you're on a CSMA/CA medium, but some people treat it as CSMA/CD but don't bother with the CD aspect of it
️(That's Carrier Sense Multiple Access, with either Collision Avoidance or Collision Detection, for those not in the networking world)
@anyia@lgbtqia.space @alice@lgbtqia.space Love the analogy!
(It could be worse. Never forget Appletalk, the protocol where address assignment is based on jabbering....)
