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  3. We'll see how I feel in the morning, but for now i seem to have convinced myself to actually read that fuckin anthropic paper

We'll see how I feel in the morning, but for now i seem to have convinced myself to actually read that fuckin anthropic paper

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  • CassandrichD Cassandrich

    @jenniferplusplus It's less a claim and more an intentionally-unsubstantiated background premise which the supposed research will treat as an assumed truth.

    JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
    JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
    Jenniferplusplus
    wrote last edited by
    #35

    @dalias Honestly, yes. I suspect the purpose of this paper is to reinforce that production is a correct and necessary factor to consider when making decisions about AI.

    And secondarily, I suspect it's establishing justification for blaming workers for undesirable outcomes; it's our fault for choosing to learn badly.

    CassandrichD 1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

      > As AI development progresses, the problem of supervising more and more capable AI systems becomes more difficult if humans have weaker abilities to understand code [Bowman et al., 2022]. When complex software tasks require human-AI collaboration,
      humans still need to understand the basic concepts of code development even if their software skills are
      complementary to the strengths of AI [Wang et al., 2020].

      Right, sure. Except, there is actually a third option. But it's one that seems inconceivable to the authors. That is to not use AI in this context. I'm not even necessarily arguing* that's better. But if this is supposed to be sincere scholarship, how is that not even under consideration?

      *well, I am arguing that, in the context of AI as a political project. If you had similar programs that were developed and deployed in a way that empowers people, rather than disempowers them, this would be a very different conversation. Of course, I would also argue that very same political project is why it's inconceivable to the authors, soooo

      JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
      JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
      Jenniferplusplus
      wrote last edited by
      #36

      And then we switch back to background context. We get a 11 sentences of AI = productivity. Then 3 sentences on "cognitive offloading". 4 sentences on skill retention. And 4 on "over reliance". So, fully 50% of the background section of the "AI Impacts on Skill Formation" paper is about productivity.

      JenniferplusplusJ 1 Reply Last reply
      0
      • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

        "AI" is not actually a technology, in the way people would commonly understand that term.

        If you're feeling extremely generous, you could say that AI is a marketing term for a loose and shifting bundle of technologies that have specific useful applications.

        I am not feeling so generous.

        AI is a technocratic political project for the purpose of industrializing knowledge work. The details of how it works are a distant secondary concern to the effect it has, which is to enclose and capture all knowledge work and make it dependent on capital.

        josh g.J This user is from outside of this forum
        josh g.J This user is from outside of this forum
        josh g.
        wrote last edited by
        #37

        @jenniferplusplus
        bookmarked for future reference, boosting is not enough

        1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

          I just

          I'm not actually in the habit of reading academic research papers like this. Is it normal to begin these things by confidently asserting your priors as fact, unsupported by anything in the study?

          I suppose I should do the same, because there's no way it's not going to inform my read on this

          Cat HicksG This user is from outside of this forum
          Cat HicksG This user is from outside of this forum
          Cat Hicks
          wrote last edited by
          #38

          @jenniferplusplus it's not a great lit review/paper in terms of connecting to broader literature; that is however typical for software research (not for more empirical fields like psychology imho)

          1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

            > We find that using AI assistance to complete
            tasks that involve this new library resulted in a reduction in the evaluation score by 17% or two grade
            points (Cohen’s d = 0.738, p = 0.010). Meanwhile, we did not find a statistically significant acceleration in
            completion time with AI assistance.

            I mean, that's an enormous effect. I'm very interested in the methods section, now.

            > Through an in-depth qualitative analysis where we watch the screen recordings of every participant in our
            main study, we explain the lack of AI productivity improvement through the additional time some participants
            invested in interacting with the AI assistant.

            ...

            Is this about learning, or is it about productivity!? God.

            > We attribute the gains in skill development of the control group to the process of encountering and subsequently resolving errors independently

            Hm. Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle. A surface level read would suggest that the stochastic chatbot actually has a counter-instructional effect. But again, we'll see what the methods actually are.

            Cat HicksG This user is from outside of this forum
            Cat HicksG This user is from outside of this forum
            Cat Hicks
            wrote last edited by
            #39

            @jenniferplusplus "Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle"

            I'm not sure I agree! Desirable difficulties literature and metacognition lit both agree short term failures can lead to better long term retention (people's lack of belief in this is often pointed to as a reason we engage in inefficient problem solving). That is one reason project based learning can sometimes beat sage on a stage lectures

            Eg classic lit here: https://bjorklab.psych.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2016/04/EBjork_RBjork_2011.pdf

            JenniferplusplusJ 1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

              And then we switch back to background context. We get a 11 sentences of AI = productivity. Then 3 sentences on "cognitive offloading". 4 sentences on skill retention. And 4 on "over reliance". So, fully 50% of the background section of the "AI Impacts on Skill Formation" paper is about productivity.

              JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
              JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
              Jenniferplusplus
              wrote last edited by
              #40

              Chapter 3. Framework.

              Finally.

              Paraphrasing a little: "the learning by doing" philosphy connects completing real world tasks with learning new concepts and developing new skills. Experiental learning has also been explored to mimic solving real world problems. We focus on settings where workers must acquire new skills to complete tasks. We seek to understand both the impact of AI on productivity
              and skill formation. We ask whether AI assistance presents a tradeoff between immediate productivity and longer-term skill development or if AI assistance presents a shortcut to enhance both.

              Right. There it is again: productivity. Even within this framing, there are at least 3 more possibilities. That AI does not actually increase productivity; that AI has no effect at all; or that AI improves learning only. I think it's very telling that the authors don't even conceive of these options. Particularly the last one.

              But I'm becoming more and more convinced that the framing of productivity as an essential factor to measure and judge by is itself the whole purpose of this paper. And, specifically, productivity as defined by production output. But maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.

              JenniferplusplusJ 1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                Chapter 3. Framework.

                Finally.

                Paraphrasing a little: "the learning by doing" philosphy connects completing real world tasks with learning new concepts and developing new skills. Experiental learning has also been explored to mimic solving real world problems. We focus on settings where workers must acquire new skills to complete tasks. We seek to understand both the impact of AI on productivity
                and skill formation. We ask whether AI assistance presents a tradeoff between immediate productivity and longer-term skill development or if AI assistance presents a shortcut to enhance both.

                Right. There it is again: productivity. Even within this framing, there are at least 3 more possibilities. That AI does not actually increase productivity; that AI has no effect at all; or that AI improves learning only. I think it's very telling that the authors don't even conceive of these options. Particularly the last one.

                But I'm becoming more and more convinced that the framing of productivity as an essential factor to measure and judge by is itself the whole purpose of this paper. And, specifically, productivity as defined by production output. But maybe I'm getting ahead of myself.

                JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                Jenniferplusplus
                wrote last edited by
                #41

                And now we have actual research questions! It feels like it shouldn't take this long to get these, but w/e

                1. Does AI assistance improve task completion productivity when new skills are required?
                2. How does using AI assistance affect the development of these new skills?

                We'll learn how the authors propose to answer these questions in the next chapter: Methods.

                But first, there is a 6 year old in here demanding I play minecraft, and I'd rather do that.

                To be continued... probbaly

                Weekend EditorW 1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • Rachael LR Rachael L

                  @inthehands @jenniferplusplus One of my personal hesitance to use the LLM tools much (despite incredible professional pressure to do so) is that my use of it (again, under professional necessity) has re-enforced my pre-existing belief that struggling through a problem, debugging and digging through source and so on has been CRITICAL to my skill development. It is something I have for (uh) 15+ years told less experienced software developers is critical to getting better / faster!

                  Dawn AhukannaD This user is from outside of this forum
                  Dawn AhukannaD This user is from outside of this forum
                  Dawn Ahukanna
                  wrote last edited by
                  #42

                  @r343l @inthehands @jenniferplusplus
                  “struggling through a problem, debugging & digging through source & so on has been CRITICAL to my skill development” … because the “cognitive struggle” is like doing physical exercise or activity to get your body and brain better + faster doing it.
                  Making a request & waiting for the output result is like ordering a meal from a restaurant menu & somehow expecting that action to make you an expert Chef. At most, you become an expert at ordering off a menu.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • Cat HicksG Cat Hicks

                    @jenniferplusplus "Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle"

                    I'm not sure I agree! Desirable difficulties literature and metacognition lit both agree short term failures can lead to better long term retention (people's lack of belief in this is often pointed to as a reason we engage in inefficient problem solving). That is one reason project based learning can sometimes beat sage on a stage lectures

                    Eg classic lit here: https://bjorklab.psych.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/13/2016/04/EBjork_RBjork_2011.pdf

                    JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                    JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                    Jenniferplusplus
                    wrote last edited by
                    #43

                    @grimalkina I think I phrased that badly. I'm aware and agree that doing a thing, mistakes and all, is very often has better learning outcomes than lectures from experts.

                    What I meant was doing a thing with guidance and feedback from an expert has better outcomes than doing it in isolation.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                      @dalias Honestly, yes. I suspect the purpose of this paper is to reinforce that production is a correct and necessary factor to consider when making decisions about AI.

                      And secondarily, I suspect it's establishing justification for blaming workers for undesirable outcomes; it's our fault for choosing to learn badly.

                      CassandrichD This user is from outside of this forum
                      CassandrichD This user is from outside of this forum
                      Cassandrich
                      wrote last edited by
                      #44

                      @jenniferplusplus 🤔 The purpose of a paper is the assumptions it makes.

                      JenniferplusplusJ 1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                        > We find that using AI assistance to complete
                        tasks that involve this new library resulted in a reduction in the evaluation score by 17% or two grade
                        points (Cohen’s d = 0.738, p = 0.010). Meanwhile, we did not find a statistically significant acceleration in
                        completion time with AI assistance.

                        I mean, that's an enormous effect. I'm very interested in the methods section, now.

                        > Through an in-depth qualitative analysis where we watch the screen recordings of every participant in our
                        main study, we explain the lack of AI productivity improvement through the additional time some participants
                        invested in interacting with the AI assistant.

                        ...

                        Is this about learning, or is it about productivity!? God.

                        > We attribute the gains in skill development of the control group to the process of encountering and subsequently resolving errors independently

                        Hm. Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle. A surface level read would suggest that the stochastic chatbot actually has a counter-instructional effect. But again, we'll see what the methods actually are.

                        catchC This user is from outside of this forum
                        catchC This user is from outside of this forum
                        catch
                        wrote last edited by
                        #45

                        @jenniferplusplus I think the 'control group' here didn't use AI at all. At least that's how I read it. And they completed the task in more or less the same time and two grades better results.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                          And now we have actual research questions! It feels like it shouldn't take this long to get these, but w/e

                          1. Does AI assistance improve task completion productivity when new skills are required?
                          2. How does using AI assistance affect the development of these new skills?

                          We'll learn how the authors propose to answer these questions in the next chapter: Methods.

                          But first, there is a 6 year old in here demanding I play minecraft, and I'd rather do that.

                          To be continued... probbaly

                          Weekend EditorW This user is from outside of this forum
                          Weekend EditorW This user is from outside of this forum
                          Weekend Editor
                          wrote last edited by
                          #46

                          @jenniferplusplus

                          There's a whole series of recent studies from MIT, CMU, Boston Consulting Group, BBC, and Oxford Economics arguing that AI/LLM assistants do NOT improve productivity.

                          Walk-through here:

                          https://www.someweekendreading.blog/ai-update-2026/

                          JenniferplusplusJ 1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • CassandrichD Cassandrich

                            @jenniferplusplus 🤔 The purpose of a paper is the assumptions it makes.

                            JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                            JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                            Jenniferplusplus
                            wrote last edited by
                            #47

                            @dalias Not all the time. But if it's research conducted and published by the in-house research team of Anthropic? Yeah, probably

                            CassandrichD 1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                              @dalias Not all the time. But if it's research conducted and published by the in-house research team of Anthropic? Yeah, probably

                              CassandrichD This user is from outside of this forum
                              CassandrichD This user is from outside of this forum
                              Cassandrich
                              wrote last edited by
                              #48

                              @jenniferplusplus Yeah. Or if there are conflicts of interest in the funding, or if the researchers are just aspiring to getting hired into the industry or getting VC for their own ideas.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • Weekend EditorW Weekend Editor

                                @jenniferplusplus

                                There's a whole series of recent studies from MIT, CMU, Boston Consulting Group, BBC, and Oxford Economics arguing that AI/LLM assistants do NOT improve productivity.

                                Walk-through here:

                                https://www.someweekendreading.blog/ai-update-2026/

                                JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                Jenniferplusplus
                                wrote last edited by
                                #49

                                @weekend_editor 👀 🔖

                                1 Reply Last reply
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