PS. With all the Discord stuff, in case you wonder why you never see me promoting Matrix, it’s not because it’s a usability nightmare (which it is) but because it’s made by the kind of people who’d be happy to call ICE a customer.

FKFTSH

@aral @element ew, what the fuck? thank you for sharing. do you have any good ideas for alternatives?

Proletarian Rage

@aral and even worse. https://todon.nl/@prolrage/113673379589154244

Una :v_trans: :v_bi:

I'll also try to help, I know about xmpp. https://xmpp.org/ and maybe IRC maybe someone nows more.

Aral Balkan

@fuckfetish @element There used to be Mattermost but I just took a look at their site and it looks like they’ve gone full “military fuck yeah”.

This is what happens when people believe the “we care about human rights blah blah” bullshit of open source enterprise software corporations. The hint’s in “enterprise software” – that’s that they’re about, nothing else.

[object Object]

@aral @element “no, there are no backdoors” is rich coming from the protocol whose previous end-to-end encryption implementation was effectively a no-op and whose current implementation leaks almost every bit of message metadata and is notoriously unreliable on top of it

Element

@aral This is not the case. See https://element.io/en/legal/ethics for the public ethics policy of who we sell to.

[object Object]

@element @aral this is just a page that says “unable to decrypt message”

more seriously, instead of giving a generic “this is not the case” in response to aral’s post that included receipts of the partnerships you’ve entered, are you able to confirm in writing that you will not provide services or technology to ICE or its affiliates? if one of the American police departments you have partnered with has become affiliated with ICE, have you done anything to end that partnership?

[object Object]

@element @aral in the context that these are public institutions and that you’ve been very public in supporting them with partnerships and technology: are you able to show me a case where an organization you partnered with violated items #5 or #6 in the link you posted and forced you to end the partnership?

Áron

@aral no?

Svavar the Neurospicy

@aral @element

I suppose in order to care about usability you have to care about people.

[object Object]

@element @aral come on guys, I gave you such a softball with this one. I didn’t even talk about how your stated ethics are neoliberal claptrap desperately searching for a non-paradoxical definition of a good cop who can never exist.

all you gotta do is tell us explicitly you won’t work with ICE and give us an example of the consequences for a public institution that violated your ethics policy.

yes you can share that exact information; you’re receiving public money for your services.

Tamtam

@zzt @aral @element
what beter alternatives do you recommend? I'm looking for something in addition to signal, that doesn't run on big tech infrastructure.

[object Object]

@Tamtam @aral @element none unfortunately. somehow, software as an industry is incapable of making a chat protocol worth a damn.

Tamtam

@zzt @aral @element
That's a pretty big gaping whole opposite a pretty big demand.

[object Object]

@Tamtam @aral @element yes it is and it’s extremely depressing that we apparently can’t do better than this

Tamtam

@zzt @aral @element
what's the crux? we see all kinds of genius open source solutions cropping up, what's the thing about messenger?

Magnus Ahltorp

@aral Note how @element is not saying what ”is not the case”, while linking to a page clearly and explicitly stating that they’re selling to ”police”.

mlen

@zzt @aral @element "No backdoors are included, because none are needed."

Aral Balkan

@element Bro, this you? Don’t piss in my face and tell me it’s raining.

Aral Balkan

@ahltorp @element Oh it’s ok, they only sell to white fascists apparently.