Age Verification isn't a technical problem to solve.

@divVerent @Em0nM4stodon No there are not. This is a fundamental fact of mathematical logic. Given a proposed age verification system you can prove that it's either trivially bypassed (doesn't actually verify age) or violates key privacy properties.

Em's point is spot-on. If you think of this as a problem to be solved, you are going to be wrong and you are going to be a useful fool for fascists.

@john_philip_bell @Em0nM4stodon The message being boolean is irrelevant. Fools are acting like revealing yourself to the party that boolean message is sent to is the threat. It's revealing yourself to the *sender* of that message that's the threat.

@Em0nM4stodon At least in the Netherlands there is a privacy friendly solution. https://yivi.app/en/

@dalias@hachyderm.io @Em0nM4stodon@infosec.exchange My approach is actually one of the former category - "trivially" bypassable.

By making the parents responsible. They can set up youth protection software on the device on their children's devices if they feel they need to. Just like now.

The only technical thing I'd ask for is that social networks describe themselves in some form of XML file, and that they respect a Do-Not-Track-like header.

All else is on the client software. Which the parents may or may not install. And if the kids are old enough to have the kind of money to buy their own phone and pay for their own internet connection, they can of course trivially bypass it and I don't care.

And sorry for being a fascist. I don't want platforms like Roblox, TikTok and X to keep harming children. Honestly, I'd rather have them banned entirely (and also every single short video platform or platform feature). But as that's not gonna happen, let's keep at least children out of there. Or else we'll be raising more fascists.

@divVerent You said the solution to your actual problem right there: ban these abusive platforms entirely. Or at least regulate them into not being able to do the really harmful things they do - to people of all ages. None of that has anything to do with policing children or policing whether users are adults.

@Em0nM4stodon What do you think of age verification in bars before they give you the alcohol? Or age verification before they let you in a sex convention. /gen

@dalias@hachyderm.io But that's not gonna happen.

So next I at least don't want children to be confronted with this abuse.

The absolute minimum demand for technical changes to the internet I have is getting Do-Not-Track back. When set, platforms still must operate to its full extent but not perform any user behavior analysis for purposes such as content recommendation or targeted advertisement (they still should be allowed to track for abuse prevention but they must take and disclosure measures that such data is not used for any other purpose, not even used as training data for future AI models).

@divVerent If you don't want them confronted with this, but it still exists, all you're doing is setting them up not to be equipped to deal with it once they do. And either way they're still stuck living in a world ruled by adults whose brains are rotted on this stuff. I get that this is all very unpleasant and people want an easy solution, but there is none short of attacking the root problem.

If you think hiding it from children (not with trojan internet passport schemes, which are a non starter, but as a parent or whatever) is best, you do you. I think educating and conveying values to them so that they can see the rot for what it is and be ready to protect themselves and fight it is probably better.

@ben @Em0nM4stodon this. Parents have to check what their Kid do and not someone else. Of course you can miss something but for this you can teach your Kid how to use the Internet right. We all had to learn this too.

@0x4d6165 @Em0nM4stodon How is it bad faith? I am genuinely confused at why it's ok to have age checks in person but not online. The Internet might not be physical, but it's still real life with real people.

@Azarilh @Em0nM4stodon how about getting yourself blocked? /gen

@Em0nM4stodon the first person project could solve a lot of these things in a privacy preserving way - but it is a hard technical, social problem to solve. http://firstperson.network/ - I think we need the trust layer of the internet - but in a way that also solves privacy.

@0x4d6165 @Em0nM4stodon I love when people block for having a genuine question, instead of having a productive conversation. /s
So silly.

@divVerent @Em0nM4stodon

You are missing the point.

Gatekeeping access is also a problem. It's the end of free speech and free access to information and the freedom to associate.

@divVerent @dalias@hachyderm.io

The children will be confronted with so much if we don't solve issues with tech bros at the source.

And soon enough everything will seem small compared to the climate catastrophe, which those tech bros have a big part in.

@divVerent And first results from Australia are in. Guess what. A net negative for kids.

It's not actually about kids in the first place.

@0x4d6165 The methods they use are terrible but it can be done safely, look at EU's proposed app which would make the government check your age, not random private companies. And the government would simply tell the website "yes" or "no", without any identifiable information. So the problem would not persist. It's also open source.

Would you still be against that? If so, why?

@0x4d6165 It's open source.

@0x4d6165 It means people can check the code and see what it really does. It's supposed to simply give a yes or no, nothing else. Or do you think this is still corruptable?

@0x4d6165 Very insightful...