Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses.
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Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses. He asked on Bluesky and will get sub-Mastodon-tier answers:
"This is a serious question and I would be delighted if I only hear great things but, software engineers: both before and after LLMs, how often in your professional lives have you run into software engineers that seem completely useless or lacking in basic knowledge? I hope the answer is rarely"
@ludicity fortunately none so far. It's still a relatively short career though
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Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses. He asked on Bluesky and will get sub-Mastodon-tier answers:
"This is a serious question and I would be delighted if I only hear great things but, software engineers: both before and after LLMs, how often in your professional lives have you run into software engineers that seem completely useless or lacking in basic knowledge? I hope the answer is rarely"
@ludicity I have fortunately increased my distance from Silicon Valley startups nowadays, otherwise I might have a more pertinent answer RE "after LLMs", but in web dev, the truth is there have already been numerous inflection points in the before times. Examples:
- Mid-late 2000s: Back-end engineers write tons of awful front-end code because organizations refuse to hire specialists as they fail to appreciate how distinct and deep of a discipline semantic HTML, accessibility, CSS, and client-side scripting have become.
- Mid-late 2010s: The advent of various JS frameworks (e.g. React, Next, Tailwind) lead to more and more _front-end_ engineers who _also_ don't understand any of the things I listed above, when that should literally be their damn job.(Edit: dates indicate when these problems started. They haven't stopped.)
Of course, because LLMs "learn from" all of the mountains of bad code already output via these prior layers of dysfunction, that will only multiply the pain further...
Perhaps more related to the "after LLMs" bucket, though, is just how many OSS projects my work has depended on that have accepted vibe-coded PRs, which I find deeply unsettling, especially given the context of findings like this: https://cyberplace.social/@GossiTheDog/116080909947754833
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Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses. He asked on Bluesky and will get sub-Mastodon-tier answers:
"This is a serious question and I would be delighted if I only hear great things but, software engineers: both before and after LLMs, how often in your professional lives have you run into software engineers that seem completely useless or lacking in basic knowledge? I hope the answer is rarely"
@ludicity A number of times, but it mostly seemed to depend on the shop, its culture, and how they hired. The worst have been the mid-size agencies, which tend to optimize for minimizing inputs while maximizing billable hours, resulting in software that *mostly* works, with source code that looks like it was written by a dog. Such shops absorb large quantities of useless engineers from the market - mostly those that got into it for the money.
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Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses. He asked on Bluesky and will get sub-Mastodon-tier answers:
"This is a serious question and I would be delighted if I only hear great things but, software engineers: both before and after LLMs, how often in your professional lives have you run into software engineers that seem completely useless or lacking in basic knowledge? I hope the answer is rarely"
@ludicity in OSS: rarely, partly because I use obscure programming languages
work, pre-LLM: rarely but more than OSS
work, now: very often, even engineers who I know used to be competent have lost it much faster than I would have thought possible
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@ludicity For the record, I work at a software company that employs ~10k developers.
Before LLMs, I'd encounter such engineers a couple of times a month, but I interact with a lot of engineers, specifically the ones that need help or are new at the company or industry at large, so it's a selected sample. Even the most inexperienced ones are willing and able to learn with some guidance.
After LLMs, there's been a significant uptick, and these new ones are grossly incompetent, incurious, impatient, and behave like addicts if their supply of tokens is at all interrupted. If they run out of prompt credits, its an emergency because they claim they can't do any work at all. They can't even explain the architecture of what they are making anymore, and can't even file tickets or send emails without an LLM writing it for them, and they certainly lack in any kind of reading comprehension.
It's bleak and depressing, and makes me want to quit the industry altogether.
Tangential, I have noticed a trend with customer emails (wide spread, many multiples companies) that makes me believe more people are using LLMs to write reply emails & not reading at all.
there's a 'jje ne sais quoi' to not just them not answering questions but *how* they're not answering questions.
I can't put my finger on it, but it's tripping my spidy-sense / pattern recognition.
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@drikanis @ludicity Similar experience here. More and more people cannot function without an LLM prompt ready to answer to them, they totally lost any autonomy. If you ask anything to them, they will basically give you the output of their LLM, instead of formulating an answer by themselves, even when they know the answer. It’s pure cocaine.
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Uncommonly, both before and after LLMs.
I’ve generally been fortunate to work for companies that filter out people with low skill pretty well without being terrifying during the interview, and also for being on teams with mostly mid-level and higher developers/engineers.
The commonest “problem” behavior I’ve seen is people (at many levels of technical skill) having significant degrees of learned helplessness when confronted with problems outside their stronger skill sets. The developers I know mostly don’t use LLMs for coding or similar tasks, so I can’t really comment on “before vs. after” there.
@ludicity > The developers I know mostly don’t use LLMs for coding or similar tasks, so I can’t really comment on “before vs. after” there.
One potential exception is a third-party contracting business my team works with from time to time. There was one case about a month ago where one of the developers was essentially frozen out of "AI" software development tools for a project (my company only permits the enterprise version of MS Copilot for internal work, and as contractors, they lacked access to that version) and got all hinky about "likely not having enough time to do this project without AI". My own assessment of the project is that it would have been a challenge for a team *that knew what they were doing*, but not an insuperable one.
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Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses. He asked on Bluesky and will get sub-Mastodon-tier answers:
"This is a serious question and I would be delighted if I only hear great things but, software engineers: both before and after LLMs, how often in your professional lives have you run into software engineers that seem completely useless or lacking in basic knowledge? I hope the answer is rarely"
@ludicity it comes in waves. Working in SF 1998-2001 anybody that could hack out HTML was a “developer”, then 2010-ish the proliferation of “code camps” where everybody was a “full-stack developer” because they could have a LAMP stack hack out HTML…
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Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses. He asked on Bluesky and will get sub-Mastodon-tier answers:
"This is a serious question and I would be delighted if I only hear great things but, software engineers: both before and after LLMs, how often in your professional lives have you run into software engineers that seem completely useless or lacking in basic knowledge? I hope the answer is rarely"
@ludicity whats your profile on bluesky?
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Tangential, I have noticed a trend with customer emails (wide spread, many multiples companies) that makes me believe more people are using LLMs to write reply emails & not reading at all.
there's a 'jje ne sais quoi' to not just them not answering questions but *how* they're not answering questions.
I can't put my finger on it, but it's tripping my spidy-sense / pattern recognition.
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@ludicity asking this question speaks inexperience loudly. Incompetence is widespread in all areas of life. Even before LLMs. Especially in enterprise.
Curiously, this confession just popped up on Fesshole, it talks about a technical role but could be about almost any office job
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We must welcome folks with no experience, and not deride them as being “useless”.
Lack of compassion and human engagement, and the capitalists dream of the 10x hero programmer got us into this mess.
It’s your job to develop your team. Train them. Believe in them. Support them.
It’s not a pissing contest.
@knowuh Sure, though we're talking about "Fifteen year veteran that doesn't use Git", not "Fresh grad that doesn't use Git". Like someone that is prima facie not worth their salary, and would surprise their manager if they understood how large the skill gap is.
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@ludicity For the record, I work at a software company that employs ~10k developers.
Before LLMs, I'd encounter such engineers a couple of times a month, but I interact with a lot of engineers, specifically the ones that need help or are new at the company or industry at large, so it's a selected sample. Even the most inexperienced ones are willing and able to learn with some guidance.
After LLMs, there's been a significant uptick, and these new ones are grossly incompetent, incurious, impatient, and behave like addicts if their supply of tokens is at all interrupted. If they run out of prompt credits, its an emergency because they claim they can't do any work at all. They can't even explain the architecture of what they are making anymore, and can't even file tickets or send emails without an LLM writing it for them, and they certainly lack in any kind of reading comprehension.
It's bleak and depressing, and makes me want to quit the industry altogether.
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@ludicity Depends. Rarely professionally, but I did most of my hiring for most of my life and I’ve seen things you people wouldn’t believe during the interviews.
The worst people were exactly like LLM - stupid, loud and unable to admit they are wrong.
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Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses. He asked on Bluesky and will get sub-Mastodon-tier answers:
"This is a serious question and I would be delighted if I only hear great things but, software engineers: both before and after LLMs, how often in your professional lives have you run into software engineers that seem completely useless or lacking in basic knowledge? I hope the answer is rarely"
@ludicity i don't quite know how to tell ed that, like basically every other field of endeavor, software is permeable to people who have no useful idea what they're doing.
(or, i guess, that some of the people who lack basic knowledge and have no ability to contribute will probably stay that way forever but that many others eventually figure things out and become pretty effective.)
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Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses. He asked on Bluesky and will get sub-Mastodon-tier answers:
"This is a serious question and I would be delighted if I only hear great things but, software engineers: both before and after LLMs, how often in your professional lives have you run into software engineers that seem completely useless or lacking in basic knowledge? I hope the answer is rarely"
@ludicity 10 years in data engineering. "Completely useless" is something I've only seen a few times, more often in non-technical managers which wasn't the question.
I do often see engineers who don't understood best practices or good architecture. Or don't understand the frameworks they are using. Or frankly just don't try.
The LLM spell mostly affects the beginner or mediocre engineer. Senior engineers find them mostly frustrating but occasionally useful.
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@ludicity For the record, I work at a software company that employs ~10k developers.
Before LLMs, I'd encounter such engineers a couple of times a month, but I interact with a lot of engineers, specifically the ones that need help or are new at the company or industry at large, so it's a selected sample. Even the most inexperienced ones are willing and able to learn with some guidance.
After LLMs, there's been a significant uptick, and these new ones are grossly incompetent, incurious, impatient, and behave like addicts if their supply of tokens is at all interrupted. If they run out of prompt credits, its an emergency because they claim they can't do any work at all. They can't even explain the architecture of what they are making anymore, and can't even file tickets or send emails without an LLM writing it for them, and they certainly lack in any kind of reading comprehension.
It's bleak and depressing, and makes me want to quit the industry altogether.
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@ludicity For the record, I work at a software company that employs ~10k developers.
Before LLMs, I'd encounter such engineers a couple of times a month, but I interact with a lot of engineers, specifically the ones that need help or are new at the company or industry at large, so it's a selected sample. Even the most inexperienced ones are willing and able to learn with some guidance.
After LLMs, there's been a significant uptick, and these new ones are grossly incompetent, incurious, impatient, and behave like addicts if their supply of tokens is at all interrupted. If they run out of prompt credits, its an emergency because they claim they can't do any work at all. They can't even explain the architecture of what they are making anymore, and can't even file tickets or send emails without an LLM writing it for them, and they certainly lack in any kind of reading comprehension.
It's bleak and depressing, and makes me want to quit the industry altogether.
@drikanis @ludicity The writing was on the wall when front end developers stopped being able to do anything if there wasn't already a component in a library somewhere they could import.
"Can we have that as a drop down list with an icon next to each item?”, I say.
"No”, they say, “I don't think our framework has that”
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@ludicity Ask me how many times someone other than me has, in my presence, used or mentioned using a debugger (As contrary to inserting a bunch of debug prints in the code).
Zero. It’s zero times.
