Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python.
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@cwebber i miss the good old days, when people stopped writing code because they burned out and never wanted to go near a computer again
Hey, I burnt out.
I still write code.
Just not the kind that warms my heart. ;-/ More the stuff that still needs doing, that apparently others stopped doing so I stepped in because yikes.
Sysadmin habits die hard. ;(
CC: @cwebber@social.coop
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I have my fifth graders write a program that will convert decimal numbers to Roman numerals. They know that there are already webpages that do this with smart trim programs that always give the right answer. They know they could ask an LLM and probably get the right answers most of the time.
They still want to solve the puzzle.
"It works! It works!"
I've love hearing that when I'm teaching.
It took me a long time to find a programing puzzle at the right level for 5th grade. Many things that might seem simple are too complex.
Making the Roman numeral converter they learn about indexes and lists, place value, and modular division.
It's really math, and logic. Working out how to present the question made *me* smarter since I had to think about the problem in a new way that avoided aspects of coding that were ... technical without really teaching much.
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I have my fifth graders write a program that will convert decimal numbers to Roman numerals. They know that there are already webpages that do this with smart trim programs that always give the right answer. They know they could ask an LLM and probably get the right answers most of the time.
They still want to solve the puzzle.
"It works! It works!"
I've love hearing that when I'm teaching.
Nothing quite like it when students (at any level) get it and let you know.
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It took me a long time to find a programing puzzle at the right level for 5th grade. Many things that might seem simple are too complex.
Making the Roman numeral converter they learn about indexes and lists, place value, and modular division.
It's really math, and logic. Working out how to present the question made *me* smarter since I had to think about the problem in a new way that avoided aspects of coding that were ... technical without really teaching much.
I don't really get how one could use an LLM to help with coding without reading the code?
That's baffling. But I don't make apps I teach young people to think and solve problems. So maybe that's why I don't get it.
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Also, I think using hosted models is strictly unethical for surveillance and energy usage reasons.
It *is* true that there are models you can run locally that are much, much more efficient, and I suspect the energy costs on training them can be dramatically reduced.
I don't use either presently, but using a local model to help you navigate a codebase (as opposed to generating code) is a very different thing, I think. But it's also not what most people are doing!
And hosted AI models, as I said, I think are fully objectionable from an ethics perspective.
Datacenters are an antipattern in the general case. AI datacenters, triply so.
@cwebber a disturbing trend I’ve started to see is functionality being added to apps where LLMs process data that could have been processed via traditional code. Even if the LLM were to write that code, it would be orders of magnitude more efficient than executing an LLM continuation for every piece of data that is being processed
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@cwebber My XKCD-style password is so strong you can’t crack it: “undefined reference begin document”
@gugurumbe @cwebber #!REF2 over here...
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
Did their jobs force them to become managers?
It seems a common path for someone who was technical gets pushed into a social managerial role, and they don't have time to program any more so they get rusty, and so programming is now far harder than it was when they were regularly practicing.
I think these now managers are the ones most tempted by LLM assistance, since it lets them generate code more like what they used to when they were in practice.
(My other question is why aren't we automating managing since apparently that has much lower job satisfaction)
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It took me a long time to find a programing puzzle at the right level for 5th grade. Many things that might seem simple are too complex.
Making the Roman numeral converter they learn about indexes and lists, place value, and modular division.
It's really math, and logic. Working out how to present the question made *me* smarter since I had to think about the problem in a new way that avoided aspects of coding that were ... technical without really teaching much.
@futurebird @cwebber This is one of the key points I try and make to colleagues. It relates to the classic "you never learn something so well as when you teach it".
Every time they use an LLM to write questions etc. they loose an opportunity to improve their practice, it reduces their ability to understand the material etc. Even if they then review the material... practicing the exploration / creation part of the process is just as important.
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Also, I think using hosted models is strictly unethical for surveillance and energy usage reasons.
It *is* true that there are models you can run locally that are much, much more efficient, and I suspect the energy costs on training them can be dramatically reduced.
I don't use either presently, but using a local model to help you navigate a codebase (as opposed to generating code) is a very different thing, I think. But it's also not what most people are doing!
And hosted AI models, as I said, I think are fully objectionable from an ethics perspective.
Datacenters are an antipattern in the general case. AI datacenters, triply so.
@cwebber I think I'm comfortable waiting til the economics sorts itself out (and fortunate to work a software engineering job where at the moment they don't really care which tools I use). Like, if it turns out Anthropic is making a profit off of their $20/mo plan and it is genuinely making developers 50% more productive then I get it. But, at the same time, it could absolutely turn out that I'd have to pay $500/mo to be 10% more effective and at that point I won't really care to jump on that.
Similarly, last week I was in a meeting for an hour to discuss the impacts of changing one line of code, so while there are parts of my job that are coding-heavy maybe my "software engineering" role as a whole isn't limited by how fast I can read/write code and I doubt an LLM would help me out in that situation.
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I have my fifth graders write a program that will convert decimal numbers to Roman numerals. They know that there are already webpages that do this with smart trim programs that always give the right answer. They know they could ask an LLM and probably get the right answers most of the time.
They still want to solve the puzzle.
"It works! It works!"
I've love hearing that when I'm teaching.
@futurebird
Yeah, "it works !" in an enthusiastic voice is music to the ears.
It's when it becomes "it's alive !" that you need to start worrying. -
@wordshaper @cwebber What I will say is that continuing to maintain and develop the underlying skills is still important. People who let their writing, coding, whatever skills atrophy are likely doing themselves a disservice.
edit: It varies by thing. For example: I never wanted to be good at computer, I wanted to play Wing Commander. I'm happy to let the LLM make little one-off scripts and tools now. I offload a lot for longform nonfiction, but I run the show 90% with music and fiction writing.
It makes sense to me, then, that someone who never cared as much about code as what they could do with it is happy to offload coding to devote more brain power to the part that's fun for them.
@wordshaper @cwebber You know how people always yell "this thread should be a blog post!"
Well, that's the thing: I...don't want to. I find it easier to write in short posts. I could, however, toss it in Opus to make a draft and fix it up as a proper blog post. But right now people are too het up about AI to accept that, so I'm not about to spend tokens or time on it even if it would be an unalloyed positive.
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Steve Klabnik also had an interview on lobste.rs. There's a lot in it! It's a cool read! https://alexalejandre.com/programming/steve-klabnik-interview/
And then it gets to the AI part and he's just like "oh I don't write code anymore".
And notably Steve Klabnik has a lot to say about code, but it's *all in the past*.
Lots of brilliant people are becoming non-practitioners.
@cwebber “Lots of brilliant people are becoming non-practitioners” is a statement that is going to stay with me for a long time.
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@cwebber
My HR guy thinks I'm a fool for criticizing the new "vibe coding bootcamp," and that this is the new reality that he needs to train folks for.
Nope nope nopetty nope. -
It took me a long time to find a programing puzzle at the right level for 5th grade. Many things that might seem simple are too complex.
Making the Roman numeral converter they learn about indexes and lists, place value, and modular division.
It's really math, and logic. Working out how to present the question made *me* smarter since I had to think about the problem in a new way that avoided aspects of coding that were ... technical without really teaching much.
I use roman numerals as a startup kata in coding dojos, like a workshop to practice pair programming and writing tests and talk about programming practices.
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber my only lived experience of this person you link on lobsters is them showing up on every comment on every post even tangentially about LLMs to defend their usage of them, so i'm gonna say "why hang out on the forums" is $$ or ego
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I use roman numerals as a startup kata in coding dojos, like a workshop to practice pair programming and writing tests and talk about programming practices.
A solution that 5th graders can complete
elegant? eh
print("Roman Numerals")
ones = ["","I","II", "III", "IV", "V","VI", "VII", "VIII", "IX"]
tens = ["", "X", "XX","XXX", "XL", "L", "LX", "LXX", "LXXX", "XC"]
hundreds = ["", "C", "CC", "CCC", "CD", "D", "DC", "DCC", "DCC", "CM"]
thousands = ["", "M", "MM", "MMM"]n = input("enter a number 1 to 3999")
n=int(n)m=n//1000
n=n-m*1000h=n//100
n=n-h*100t=n//10
n=n-t*10print(thousands[m]+hundreds[h]+tens[t]+ones[n])
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I don't really get how one could use an LLM to help with coding without reading the code?
That's baffling. But I don't make apps I teach young people to think and solve problems. So maybe that's why I don't get it.
I think LLMs enable a new form of reuse in programming. Previously you could reuse abstraction, or copy code and adjust it. LLMs lets you reuse patterns. It has aspects of both other forms of reuse.
With abstractions and sometimes copy and paste we reuse without fully understanding how the thing works in detail. That's fine and useful and has drawbacks too. LLM reuse also allows choosing how much to understand.
LLMs, when run as an agent, have more levels, not only do they have access to patterns of code but also to patterns of coding; compile, run tests, debug, etc. So reuse of activity, somewhat similar to development tools but pattern based.
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber the other answer to "why hang out on the forums at all then" is: what else are they gonna do while their laptop is busy rentin sloptokens from billionaires? their actual jobs?
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Feeling FOMO about AI? Well here's my advice!
Stay on top of what's happening. Which doesn't really require *using* the tools. Just see what people are doing.
Whether or not you do use it, stay a practitioner. And don't fall for the FOMO.
Your career won't end because you're not making the choice to use AI. (If your employer makes you use it, that's another thing.)
If you use AI, use it for "summarize and explore" tasks. DO NOT use it for *generate* tasks. That's a different thing.
If you want to differentiate yourself, *learning skills* is the differentiation space right now.
These things are easy to pick up. You can do it whenever. But keep learning.
If you see generated examples, don't paste or accept them. Type them in by hand! The hands on imperative: actually trying things congeals core ideas.
And if it doesn't help your career... well, your consolation prize is: you'll stay interesting.
@cwebber i'm staying interesting and unemployed. woot.
I'm not a user of such tools but I am afraid that whatever AI auto summary is reading my resume is looking up my website and socials and not recommending me due to my stance on these issues.
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A solution that 5th graders can complete
elegant? eh
print("Roman Numerals")
ones = ["","I","II", "III", "IV", "V","VI", "VII", "VIII", "IX"]
tens = ["", "X", "XX","XXX", "XL", "L", "LX", "LXX", "LXXX", "XC"]
hundreds = ["", "C", "CC", "CCC", "CD", "D", "DC", "DCC", "DCC", "CM"]
thousands = ["", "M", "MM", "MMM"]n = input("enter a number 1 to 3999")
n=int(n)m=n//1000
n=n-m*1000h=n//100
n=n-h*100t=n//10
n=n-t*10print(thousands[m]+hundreds[h]+tens[t]+ones[n])
Very nice! I have watched experienced devs have to work at this too. They often lean towards overcomplicating things because they want to avoid hardcoding the patterns. But this then leads to a nice little discussion.
