Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python.
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber maybe they need attention? They need to talk about something -- anything. They talk about what they do, like before.
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Feeling FOMO about AI? Well here's my advice!
Stay on top of what's happening. Which doesn't really require *using* the tools. Just see what people are doing.
Whether or not you do use it, stay a practitioner. And don't fall for the FOMO.
Your career won't end because you're not making the choice to use AI. (If your employer makes you use it, that's another thing.)
If you use AI, use it for "summarize and explore" tasks. DO NOT use it for *generate* tasks. That's a different thing.
If you want to differentiate yourself, *learning skills* is the differentiation space right now.
These things are easy to pick up. You can do it whenever. But keep learning.
If you see generated examples, don't paste or accept them. Type them in by hand! The hands on imperative: actually trying things congeals core ideas.
And if it doesn't help your career... well, your consolation prize is: you'll stay interesting.
@cwebber In reality these machines sabotage the will to learn and the human spirit. People are lessened by using them. And most cannot resist their allure.
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@zkat Very much so seconded.
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Steve Klabnik also had an interview on lobste.rs. There's a lot in it! It's a cool read! https://alexalejandre.com/programming/steve-klabnik-interview/
And then it gets to the AI part and he's just like "oh I don't write code anymore".
And notably Steve Klabnik has a lot to say about code, but it's *all in the past*.
Lots of brilliant people are becoming non-practitioners.
@cwebber im still wondering how much of all of this can be blamed on the industry-manufactured 'programmer ideal' to become a manager - past programmer, now seniority justifying bossing others around instead, even if the 'others' is simply a simulacrum of the subordinate
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@cwebber What's telling, I think, is that all these people go on about how much they're doing and how great AI is to help them build more *but there's no actual demonstrable stuff being done.* I mean, if AI was some kind of Nx multiplier you'd think we'd be getting N times more actual functionality out of software but mostly it seems like the N multiplier only applies to blog posts about how AI multiplies their programming.
@wordshaper @cwebber Also, the point of writing is understanding things a little bit better (and the joy of finding the perfect words and using them in the right order).
So you're not outsourcing your writing, but rather your thinking as well as your understanding of things.
(Unless you write copy or something. Then it doesn't matter as much. Although you will be worse at writing over time, but that is – or absolutely should be – more of a preference than thinking, I'd say.)
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@gugurumbe I'm not saying people *should* use it for summarize and explore, I'm saying that's a different category of concern, if done with a local model.
However, I'll also point out you were trying to debug LaTeX, which I would argue is a nearly impossible task no matter how many resources are thrown at it
@cwebber My XKCD-style password is so strong you can’t crack it: “undefined reference begin document”
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It might just be me but I think there's an aversion to pointing people at projects where these tools were a part of it because some of those people will be jerks, or worse.
When I talk about how I'm using the tools, it's for people who already want to use them and just want some guidance for getting started on their own stuff, not for a general audience. It's not to prove anything, so there's no value in examples that outweighs the personal attacks it would invite.
@wordshaper @cwebber What I will say is that continuing to maintain and develop the underlying skills is still important. People who let their writing, coding, whatever skills atrophy are likely doing themselves a disservice.
edit: It varies by thing. For example: I never wanted to be good at computer, I wanted to play Wing Commander. I'm happy to let the LLM make little one-off scripts and tools now. I offload a lot for longform nonfiction, but I run the show 90% with music and fiction writing.
It makes sense to me, then, that someone who never cared as much about code as what they could do with it is happy to offload coding to devote more brain power to the part that's fun for them.
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Feeling FOMO about AI? Well here's my advice!
Stay on top of what's happening. Which doesn't really require *using* the tools. Just see what people are doing.
Whether or not you do use it, stay a practitioner. And don't fall for the FOMO.
Your career won't end because you're not making the choice to use AI. (If your employer makes you use it, that's another thing.)
If you use AI, use it for "summarize and explore" tasks. DO NOT use it for *generate* tasks. That's a different thing.
If you want to differentiate yourself, *learning skills* is the differentiation space right now.
These things are easy to pick up. You can do it whenever. But keep learning.
If you see generated examples, don't paste or accept them. Type them in by hand! The hands on imperative: actually trying things congeals core ideas.
And if it doesn't help your career... well, your consolation prize is: you'll stay interesting.
@cwebber Also, don't use it for "summarize" because it literally can't do that.
https://ea.rna.nl/2024/05/27/when-chatgpt-summarises-it-actually-does-nothing-of-the-kind/
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
@cwebber Why does the accursed ghoul still hang out in the outskirts forests around the town it used to live in?
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
I have my fifth graders write a program that will convert decimal numbers to Roman numerals. They know that there are already webpages that do this with smart trim programs that always give the right answer. They know they could ask an LLM and probably get the right answers most of the time.
They still want to solve the puzzle.
"It works! It works!"
I've love hearing that when I'm teaching.
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@cwebber i miss the good old days, when people stopped writing code because they burned out and never wanted to go near a computer again
Hey, I burnt out.
I still write code.
Just not the kind that warms my heart. ;-/ More the stuff that still needs doing, that apparently others stopped doing so I stepped in because yikes.
Sysadmin habits die hard. ;(
CC: @cwebber@social.coop
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I have my fifth graders write a program that will convert decimal numbers to Roman numerals. They know that there are already webpages that do this with smart trim programs that always give the right answer. They know they could ask an LLM and probably get the right answers most of the time.
They still want to solve the puzzle.
"It works! It works!"
I've love hearing that when I'm teaching.
It took me a long time to find a programing puzzle at the right level for 5th grade. Many things that might seem simple are too complex.
Making the Roman numeral converter they learn about indexes and lists, place value, and modular division.
It's really math, and logic. Working out how to present the question made *me* smarter since I had to think about the problem in a new way that avoided aspects of coding that were ... technical without really teaching much.
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I have my fifth graders write a program that will convert decimal numbers to Roman numerals. They know that there are already webpages that do this with smart trim programs that always give the right answer. They know they could ask an LLM and probably get the right answers most of the time.
They still want to solve the puzzle.
"It works! It works!"
I've love hearing that when I'm teaching.
Nothing quite like it when students (at any level) get it and let you know.
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It took me a long time to find a programing puzzle at the right level for 5th grade. Many things that might seem simple are too complex.
Making the Roman numeral converter they learn about indexes and lists, place value, and modular division.
It's really math, and logic. Working out how to present the question made *me* smarter since I had to think about the problem in a new way that avoided aspects of coding that were ... technical without really teaching much.
I don't really get how one could use an LLM to help with coding without reading the code?
That's baffling. But I don't make apps I teach young people to think and solve problems. So maybe that's why I don't get it.
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Also, I think using hosted models is strictly unethical for surveillance and energy usage reasons.
It *is* true that there are models you can run locally that are much, much more efficient, and I suspect the energy costs on training them can be dramatically reduced.
I don't use either presently, but using a local model to help you navigate a codebase (as opposed to generating code) is a very different thing, I think. But it's also not what most people are doing!
And hosted AI models, as I said, I think are fully objectionable from an ethics perspective.
Datacenters are an antipattern in the general case. AI datacenters, triply so.
@cwebber a disturbing trend I’ve started to see is functionality being added to apps where LLMs process data that could have been processed via traditional code. Even if the LLM were to write that code, it would be orders of magnitude more efficient than executing an LLM continuation for every piece of data that is being processed
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@cwebber My XKCD-style password is so strong you can’t crack it: “undefined reference begin document”
@gugurumbe @cwebber #!REF2 over here...
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Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju
Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?
Did their jobs force them to become managers?
It seems a common path for someone who was technical gets pushed into a social managerial role, and they don't have time to program any more so they get rusty, and so programming is now far harder than it was when they were regularly practicing.
I think these now managers are the ones most tempted by LLM assistance, since it lets them generate code more like what they used to when they were in practice.
(My other question is why aren't we automating managing since apparently that has much lower job satisfaction)
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It took me a long time to find a programing puzzle at the right level for 5th grade. Many things that might seem simple are too complex.
Making the Roman numeral converter they learn about indexes and lists, place value, and modular division.
It's really math, and logic. Working out how to present the question made *me* smarter since I had to think about the problem in a new way that avoided aspects of coding that were ... technical without really teaching much.
@futurebird @cwebber This is one of the key points I try and make to colleagues. It relates to the classic "you never learn something so well as when you teach it".
Every time they use an LLM to write questions etc. they loose an opportunity to improve their practice, it reduces their ability to understand the material etc. Even if they then review the material... practicing the exploration / creation part of the process is just as important.
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Also, I think using hosted models is strictly unethical for surveillance and energy usage reasons.
It *is* true that there are models you can run locally that are much, much more efficient, and I suspect the energy costs on training them can be dramatically reduced.
I don't use either presently, but using a local model to help you navigate a codebase (as opposed to generating code) is a very different thing, I think. But it's also not what most people are doing!
And hosted AI models, as I said, I think are fully objectionable from an ethics perspective.
Datacenters are an antipattern in the general case. AI datacenters, triply so.
@cwebber I think I'm comfortable waiting til the economics sorts itself out (and fortunate to work a software engineering job where at the moment they don't really care which tools I use). Like, if it turns out Anthropic is making a profit off of their $20/mo plan and it is genuinely making developers 50% more productive then I get it. But, at the same time, it could absolutely turn out that I'd have to pay $500/mo to be 10% more effective and at that point I won't really care to jump on that.
Similarly, last week I was in a meeting for an hour to discuss the impacts of changing one line of code, so while there are parts of my job that are coding-heavy maybe my "software engineering" role as a whole isn't limited by how fast I can read/write code and I doubt an LLM would help me out in that situation.
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I have my fifth graders write a program that will convert decimal numbers to Roman numerals. They know that there are already webpages that do this with smart trim programs that always give the right answer. They know they could ask an LLM and probably get the right answers most of the time.
They still want to solve the puzzle.
"It works! It works!"
I've love hearing that when I'm teaching.
@futurebird
Yeah, "it works !" in an enthusiastic voice is music to the ears.
It's when it becomes "it's alive !" that you need to start worrying.
