Web developers: we are going to go out of our way to hide the scrollbars!
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@libewa @rysiek Prior to React, even stuff like Facebook followed the document model, where the document is semantic and the AJAX stuff just updates the semantic document.
React is what ruined the web with the despicable ideological position that the primacy of the document model is a bad thing and that you're supposed to write everything as an "application" that "renders" to the DOM.
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Web developers: we are going to go out of our way to hide the scrollbars!
Users: but that makes it difficult to know how much of the text is left to read!
Web developers: don't worry, we'll add a non-standard UI element that signals this in some non-obvious, weird way!
@rysiek
GUI developers of Android, Windows since 7 (esp 10 & 11), & especially browsers (Mozilla has lost plot) are total abusive morons.
Using Mate with customised theme based on Server 2003, customised Thunderbird (fairly sane) and customised Firefox (has scrollbars but barely sane).
Also the active Tab should connect to active document. Are these folk deliberately trying to confuse & reduce productivity?
Text too grey & background too grey. No wonder people going back to DOS / Blackboard. -
@libewa @rysiek Prior to React, even stuff like Facebook followed the document model, where the document is semantic and the AJAX stuff just updates the semantic document.
React is what ruined the web with the despicable ideological position that the primacy of the document model is a bad thing and that you're supposed to write everything as an "application" that "renders" to the DOM.
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@lightspill @rysiek We should also be able to keep them always visible, and control the thickness.
I totally get why people don't like the look of the scrollbars of the 90s, but that should be an option for those who need that (either due to vision issues, trouble using the newer style, or just personal preference)
@korgie @lightspill @rysiek fuckin love the scrollbars of the 90s
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Web developers: we are going to go out of our way to hide the scrollbars!
Users: but that makes it difficult to know how much of the text is left to read!
Web developers: don't worry, we'll add a non-standard UI element that signals this in some non-obvious, weird way!
@rysiek we'll get to it as soon as we re-implement all basic form functionality in JavaScript.
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@rysiek
yes.. we want scrollbars back! leave scrollbars alone!@bituur_esztreym @rysiek And CONSISTENT bloody scrollbars in terms of both function and appearance!
The browser sorts out the scrollbars on the basis of the preferences set by the user in the OS GUI.
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Web developers: we are going to go out of our way to hide the scrollbars!
Users: but that makes it difficult to know how much of the text is left to read!
Web developers: don't worry, we'll add a non-standard UI element that signals this in some non-obvious, weird way!
@rysiek My bigger gripe with "disappearing scrollbars" is that they can make it very hard to scroll if you are not using either a touchscreen or a mouse with a scroll wheel. If you have to actually click the scrollbar with your cursor then good luck finding it ...
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Web developers: we are going to go out of our way to hide the scrollbars!
Users: but that makes it difficult to know how much of the text is left to read!
Web developers: don't worry, we'll add a non-standard UI element that signals this in some non-obvious, weird way!
@rysiek I mean I literally did that to my emacs my alfernative is line numbers and a fraction of current line vs. total # lines. But I see how the difference is me deciding to walk barefoot and someone stealing all your shoes.
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@korgie @lightspill @rysiek fuckin love the scrollbars of the 90s
@maypop_neocities @korgie @lightspill
Function over style.
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@rysiek That's the secret, Cap. I only implement infinite scrolling.
@johnduggins "hail Hydra"?
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@rysiek Honestly I just don’t like scrollbars and turn them off, but, like, I’m the user, I should be able to turn them off. Or on. Webdev (and Desktop Dev, because we’ve somehow regressed to be less capable than Windows 3.1) need to be hit with the User Sovereignty Stick.
@lightspill @rysiek Computers Commandments number one: Thou shalt not act as if thou knoweth better than thy user what thy user wants.
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@ailurocrat @dalias @libewa partially, yes. But there were scores of web developers that should have known better, and yet helped implement this.
This is also on them.
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@maypop_neocities @korgie @lightspill
Function over style.
@rysiek @korgie @lightspill nah it just is a good style too. "modern" design is ugly.
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@rysiek @korgie @lightspill nah it just is a good style too. "modern" design is ugly.
@maypop_neocities @korgie @lightspill oh I am with you. Still, if I have to choose...
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Web developers: we are going to go out of our way to hide the scrollbars!
Users: but that makes it difficult to know how much of the text is left to read!
Web developers: don't worry, we'll add a non-standard UI element that signals this in some non-obvious, weird way!
@rysiek Old Web Developers: "where the f**k is the scroll bar??"
Browser developers: "What's your user agent?"
OWD: "Why does that matter? Wait... What did you do?"
BD: "We made it better! And it's all rounded now."
OWD: "Give me back the same UI that I'm developing on! Let me control how it renders. Why are you doing this to us?"
BD: "Here, now there's AI in there, too."
OWD: "..."
BD: "You're welcome."
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@dalias @rysiek
Well, there are legitimate reasons to develop applications running in the browser engine (portability as the main one).
The problem is article sites pushing advertisement bullshit into everything, and you can‘t really do that if the user just enables Reader Mode. So, make your document tree useless for everything but proprietary CSS and JS.
A web dev should just be someone developing applications for the browser engines, like iOS devs for iPhone apps.@libewa@chaos.social @dalias@hachyderm.io @rysiek@mstdn.social Java and Common Lisp are two better examples of how to solve the portability problem.
(Portable bytecode and runs-from-source, respectively, for native programs. Of course Common Lisp (and Interlisp) also did bytecode before Java but nevermind that, bytecode is old.)
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@dalias@hachyderm.io @libewa@chaos.social @rysiek@mstdn.social It can even be a static HTML document in an
<iframe>with a user-customizable (with a request with a form field) refresh timer enabled by <meta> tags. -
@lightspill @rysiek We should also be able to keep them always visible, and control the thickness.
I totally get why people don't like the look of the scrollbars of the 90s, but that should be an option for those who need that (either due to vision issues, trouble using the newer style, or just personal preference)
@korgie @lightspill @rysiek Windows has an accessibility setting to always show scrollbars, and the Registry setting for their thickness is still evaluated, even if the UI is gone.
