Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...

Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...

"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"

In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.

The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.

I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.

Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.

¹ not all men

@alice I'm sorry, that sounds endlessly exhausting and frustrating.

Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...

"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"

In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.

The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.

I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.

Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.

¹ not all men

@anyia@lgbtqia.space @alice@lgbtqia.space Love the analogy!


(It could be worse. Never forget Appletalk, the protocol where address assignment is based on jabbering....)

@scottwilson lol, I couldn't to much worse then the current asshole!

@semitones

Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...

"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"

In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.

The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.

I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.

Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.

¹ not all men

Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...

"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"

In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.

The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.

I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.

Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.

¹ not all men

Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...

"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"

In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.

The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.

I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.

Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.

¹ not all men

Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...

"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"

In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.

The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.

I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.

Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.

¹ not all men

@alice I think you are right.

Men need to unlearn this when we leave the schoolyard and enter the adult world.

I think part of the resistance to learning this is imposter syndrome. Young men are full of fears they often cannot share. Those fears get paved over with hostility and domineering, which they pretend is strength. By the time they end up in a meeting with female peers, they have an inescapable need to prove themselves. Their inexperience leads them to believe respect and admiration is a zero-sum game. At that point, any chance of being a good team mate with women is practically lost.

It doesn't have to be that way. But, I'd say it usually is.

I've seen men who respect women in meetings. I learned to do it better, from them. It can be learned, and then things are so much better. A team fighting itself doesn't win very often. More importantly, life is shitty when it's full of conflict, and much more joyful when everyone feels good about their part in a team effort. The team wins together.

@alice
Honestly, I hear so many storys and I see them myself in team meetings, etc. And I always realize: "That's not me, I don't do that."

But I do. In my case it is related to my ADHD, that I feel the urge to burst out whatever I have in my mind before I forget about it because there are butterflies on the window!

After I realized that I started to observe myself, try to suppress impulses. Medication helps and I think I have this more under control than ever before.

Not because I count my self as "not all men", but because I realized "actually, me too". So thank you and everyone else who spoke up. Please don't stop. And everyone, please don't stop listen, even if you are not all whatever. Because it could be you anyway.

@alice@lgbtqia.space I'm also reflecting on a SF short story that featured an executive receiving a "hate-brace" before a major business meeting, and the executive's 'throwback' daughter Ployploy (who dies close to the end of the story). In the story, success in business meetings basically comes from out-screaming your rivals in psychotic rage.
But I'm damned if I remember the title or who it was by (I want to say Asimov, but I'm drawing a blank, and web search is returning only Kpop tropes). The story is told mostly from the viewpoint of the, uh, 'therapist' administering the hate-brace, who observes that being fired at the end of the session is the highest compliment his profession can receive and almost ensures being hired again next time.

@alice o.o really silly for things to work that way. if you base the worth of a person and their ideas on how willing they are to yell over other people you're going to get Nazis in power because they're the loudest, rudest, most obnoxious....

wait a moment

@alice Absolutely - and there are plenty of men not cut out for/not attracted to the roles that demand that; and there are enough women more than capable and willing to act in the way that they see gets them the roles and authority they want (enough that there are positive and negative tropes about them). Ultimately, we're social creatures and being successful in any endeavour is often easier by naturally being or learning to act like those who do, whatever stereotype fits that environent.

Recently, I was thinking about why men¹ talk over women, and I think it's less a gender thing, and more of a...

"men¹ are taught to talk over anyone who doesn't talk more assertively than they do"

In my roles as an executive at several tech companies, the one negative feedback I got on almost every review was that I wasn't assertive enough in meetings with other execs. One male CEO even told me "you need to interrupt more, talk more—even if you don't know the answer. Otherwise they'll think you don't have anything to say". Which, honestly, churned my stomach.

The feedback was clear, if I wanted to succeed I needed to talk like the guys¹ in the boardroom—the same ones¹ who'd interrupt to ask a question I was already in the middle of explaining, who'd repeat a suggestion I'd just made—only louder, who'd make some cute comment that would derail my presentation, who'd explain my position back to me as though they'd just thought of it.

I needed to do that...and I needed to do it louder.

Otherwise men¹ weren't going to listen to me.

¹ not all men

@lispi314 yeah. I'm in the habit of handing the conversation over to the other person every few sentences, so they explicitly have room to respond. If they pass it back without adding anything, then either I continue on for a couple more sentences, or the conversation awkwardly dies.

@hoco

@StarCeleste I see you see where this is headed.

@alice @StarCeleste

What you need
Is the Voice of Authority
It shuts up the beta boys every time.

Maybe it’s a Dom thing sneaking out of the Dungeon