@GrapheneOS@grapheneos.social @elly
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@domi @elly If it was meant in good faith, why is it a public post instead of a private one? Making public posts that way comes across as directly supporting the false narratives attacking our founder and other team members even if that wasn't the intent. It doesn't only come across that way to us but also enables the people targeting us. It's very likely one of the people involved here who actively uses Kiwi Farms will post archives/screenshots of this thread there so bear that in mind.
@GrapheneOS@grapheneos.social @elly it wasn't a private post because i thought we were talking in public...
also please find one post where I actually despise and hate something, that's not meant as a joke. i don't really make those, as a rule
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@GrapheneOS@grapheneos.social @elly it wasn't a private post because i thought we were talking in public...
also please find one post where I actually despise and hate something, that's not meant as a joke. i don't really make those, as a rule
@domi @GrapheneOS *sigh* I have to agree. Best thing you can do in front of "bullies" is to ignore them. Same thing goes for dealing with abusers - "best revenge is a life well lived".
I have first-hand experience with both. Therapy doesn't mean an insult, nobody (at least in this thread) wants to hurt you. It took me years to accept I needed help myself, so I *think* I know how you feel.
From my perspective at least, you've showed up and replied to my comment feeling hurt by purely my own experience/opinion.
Since @domi chose kindness, hear me out: You've clearly been hurt and never processed the trauma you've experienced. Because of that every single bit of criticism feels like an attack to you.
You can't control how people feel, but you can influence the image they have of you (and right now, you're influencing it negatively).
When all is said and done - sure, GrapheneOS is an Android distribution. However, it has a lot of genuinely cool features and good engineering put into it. Hell, I'm still interested in hardware you're working on!
To put words where my mouth is - I also blew up on multiple occasions when project I was maintaining got overwhelming and people demanded more and more for free. This was especially challenging for me, because I sometimes still have issues dealing with my emotions or navigating social constructs (aka my neurodivergent ass wasn't trained for this), plus social anxiety (which did get a lot better thanks to events like FOSDEM or C3) and no self-confidence to speak of.
Thankfully I had a good friend who (figuratively) slapped me and gave me an ultimatum: You either seek therapy, or our friendship is done. I chose the former (and while it's still not perfect, I'm working on it as mentioned previously).
Seems like you could use such a friend yourself, I can only hope this random comment from a random nerd in Europe will encourage you to at least try therapy. There's no stigma or shame. Everybody deserves happiness, including you. -
@domi @GrapheneOS *sigh* I have to agree. Best thing you can do in front of "bullies" is to ignore them. Same thing goes for dealing with abusers - "best revenge is a life well lived".
I have first-hand experience with both. Therapy doesn't mean an insult, nobody (at least in this thread) wants to hurt you. It took me years to accept I needed help myself, so I *think* I know how you feel.
From my perspective at least, you've showed up and replied to my comment feeling hurt by purely my own experience/opinion.
Since @domi chose kindness, hear me out: You've clearly been hurt and never processed the trauma you've experienced. Because of that every single bit of criticism feels like an attack to you.
You can't control how people feel, but you can influence the image they have of you (and right now, you're influencing it negatively).
When all is said and done - sure, GrapheneOS is an Android distribution. However, it has a lot of genuinely cool features and good engineering put into it. Hell, I'm still interested in hardware you're working on!
To put words where my mouth is - I also blew up on multiple occasions when project I was maintaining got overwhelming and people demanded more and more for free. This was especially challenging for me, because I sometimes still have issues dealing with my emotions or navigating social constructs (aka my neurodivergent ass wasn't trained for this), plus social anxiety (which did get a lot better thanks to events like FOSDEM or C3) and no self-confidence to speak of.
Thankfully I had a good friend who (figuratively) slapped me and gave me an ultimatum: You either seek therapy, or our friendship is done. I chose the former (and while it's still not perfect, I'm working on it as mentioned previously).
Seems like you could use such a friend yourself, I can only hope this random comment from a random nerd in Europe will encourage you to at least try therapy. There's no stigma or shame. Everybody deserves happiness, including you.@elly @domi None of that comes across as genuine from someone who has repeatedly made inaccurate claims about GrapheneOS and is friends with multiple people involved in actual bullying and harassment towards us regardless of how you might try to dismiss or downplay it. What Casey did was not minor and it had a very tangible impact on us. It caused numerous people to join the harassment and attacks on our project. It snowballed into massive disruption. It's a small fraction of it but not small.
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@elly @domi None of that comes across as genuine from someone who has repeatedly made inaccurate claims about GrapheneOS and is friends with multiple people involved in actual bullying and harassment towards us regardless of how you might try to dismiss or downplay it. What Casey did was not minor and it had a very tangible impact on us. It caused numerous people to join the harassment and attacks on our project. It snowballed into massive disruption. It's a small fraction of it but not small.
@elly @domi We're not perceiving it to be an attack on us and it's not one person who feels attacked. It's our overall team who are being attacked and targeted. You understand we have a team of full time developers, right? We're receiving an additional large amount of funding this year to expand that further. It's one person who is the focus of the harassment but numerous of our team members both paid and volunteers have been attacked and multiple people have had to become inactive due to it.
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@elly @domi We're not perceiving it to be an attack on us and it's not one person who feels attacked. It's our overall team who are being attacked and targeted. You understand we have a team of full time developers, right? We're receiving an additional large amount of funding this year to expand that further. It's one person who is the focus of the harassment but numerous of our team members both paid and volunteers have been attacked and multiple people have had to become inactive due to it.
@elly @domi You can make whatever attacks you want on GrapheneOS. postmarketOS team members have contributed to making life miserable for two dozen people working on GrapheneOS. They haven't simply contributed to that in a small way but rather a large one by onboarding more people onto it and then never doing anything to walk it back or contain it. postmarketOS has a community that's highly hostile towards us and attacking us on numerous platforms. If it grows, so do the attacks on our project.
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@elly @domi You can make whatever attacks you want on GrapheneOS. postmarketOS team members have contributed to making life miserable for two dozen people working on GrapheneOS. They haven't simply contributed to that in a small way but rather a large one by onboarding more people onto it and then never doing anything to walk it back or contain it. postmarketOS has a community that's highly hostile towards us and attacking us on numerous platforms. If it grows, so do the attacks on our project.
@GrapheneOS @domi But... I don't want to attack you (personally) or the project. I have no reason for it.
I bought a Pixel 6 back in 2022 *specifically* because of your project, stopped using it not because of something *you* did, but because I simply don't want Google's Services Frameworks on my phone at all (hence why notifications and other features weren't working). It would be exactly the same on LineageOS or other AOSP builds, it's entirely Google's fault (and my stubbornness).
Phone was also too bulky/heavy for me, it was genuinely hard to use because of my condition and caused wrist pain among other issues. If hardware you're working on would be much smaller/lighter, have a mSD and headphone jack then I would gladly buy it.
Once again, I'm somewhat adjacent to pmOS community but I genuinely never seen anyone badmouthing the project. The only thing I keep hearing at various events (in different communities) is "stay away from GrapheneOS's toxic community" (disclaimer: never been to your chats, so I won't comment whether that's true or not).
I genuinely think it's a "spiral of hatred" where X time ago someone messed up an interaction, things got sour, and over time it spiraled out of control. Then the whole Rossmann thing happened, you didn't know how to deal with it so you started being more and more defensive (especially after trauma you've experienced) and whenever people said anything remotely negative about the project, it felt like an attack to you.
I hope you realize that the sentence you wrote:
> Every time you make inaccurate claims about GrapheneOS, you get closer to us beginning a massive response including organizing our community against the project as has been done by the postmarketOS community towards GrapheneOS with endless attacks on our team.
Perfectly describes what I just said. Someone threw a rock at us, we threw a rock back. Except that rock hit the wrong person, so now we have two people throwing rocks at us. Rinse and repeat, I hope you will see what I see. -
@GrapheneOS @domi But... I don't want to attack you (personally) or the project. I have no reason for it.
I bought a Pixel 6 back in 2022 *specifically* because of your project, stopped using it not because of something *you* did, but because I simply don't want Google's Services Frameworks on my phone at all (hence why notifications and other features weren't working). It would be exactly the same on LineageOS or other AOSP builds, it's entirely Google's fault (and my stubbornness).
Phone was also too bulky/heavy for me, it was genuinely hard to use because of my condition and caused wrist pain among other issues. If hardware you're working on would be much smaller/lighter, have a mSD and headphone jack then I would gladly buy it.
Once again, I'm somewhat adjacent to pmOS community but I genuinely never seen anyone badmouthing the project. The only thing I keep hearing at various events (in different communities) is "stay away from GrapheneOS's toxic community" (disclaimer: never been to your chats, so I won't comment whether that's true or not).
I genuinely think it's a "spiral of hatred" where X time ago someone messed up an interaction, things got sour, and over time it spiraled out of control. Then the whole Rossmann thing happened, you didn't know how to deal with it so you started being more and more defensive (especially after trauma you've experienced) and whenever people said anything remotely negative about the project, it felt like an attack to you.
I hope you realize that the sentence you wrote:
> Every time you make inaccurate claims about GrapheneOS, you get closer to us beginning a massive response including organizing our community against the project as has been done by the postmarketOS community towards GrapheneOS with endless attacks on our team.
Perfectly describes what I just said. Someone threw a rock at us, we threw a rock back. Except that rock hit the wrong person, so now we have two people throwing rocks at us. Rinse and repeat, I hope you will see what I see.@elly @domi Multiple postmarketOS developers have engaged in blatant bullying and harassment towards our team. As long as they're still involved with postmarketOS and have not acknowledged that they were spreading harassment content and posting their own then that's not settled and is an active topic. There have also been recent personal attacks by several postmarketOS developers/contributors including craftyguy. This does not date back to 2023 and is not minor. We plan to make a post about it.
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@elly @domi Multiple postmarketOS developers have engaged in blatant bullying and harassment towards our team. As long as they're still involved with postmarketOS and have not acknowledged that they were spreading harassment content and posting their own then that's not settled and is an active topic. There have also been recent personal attacks by several postmarketOS developers/contributors including craftyguy. This does not date back to 2023 and is not minor. We plan to make a post about it.
@elly @domi We've posted accurate information about postmarketOS and also accurate information about what people there have done towards us. We haven't engaged in any bullying or harassment. Our community is not harassing people or raiding rooms. We're not posting videos with character assassination based around false claims. The attacks are very one sided. You somehow consider us posting our take on postmarketOS and the claims you make about GrapheneOS to be on the same level as harassment.
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@elly @domi We've posted accurate information about postmarketOS and also accurate information about what people there have done towards us. We haven't engaged in any bullying or harassment. Our community is not harassing people or raiding rooms. We're not posting videos with character assassination based around false claims. The attacks are very one sided. You somehow consider us posting our take on postmarketOS and the claims you make about GrapheneOS to be on the same level as harassment.
> why notifications and other features weren't working
Notifications work fine without sandboxed Google Play in many apps supporting using their own push or UnifiedPush including multiple email apps, messaging apps (Signal/Molly, Element / Element X for Matrix, WhatsApp, Conversations for XMPP and others) and many others.
Tap-to-pay also does work fine on GrapheneOS even though Google Pay bans it. There are other implementations including ones working without Google Play.
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> why notifications and other features weren't working
Notifications work fine without sandboxed Google Play in many apps supporting using their own push or UnifiedPush including multiple email apps, messaging apps (Signal/Molly, Element / Element X for Matrix, WhatsApp, Conversations for XMPP and others) and many others.
Tap-to-pay also does work fine on GrapheneOS even though Google Pay bans it. There are other implementations including ones working without Google Play.
@elly @domi Users in the US don't have a tap-to-pay option on GrapheneOS itself. Users in the UK and EU have multiple options available for it including at least in the EU multiple which work without Google Play.
There's a large open source app ecosystem which works without Google Play and many mainstream apps too. It's still a large app ecosystem.
There's hardware-based virtualization now for non-native apps now which is their focus for it while our focus will be using it for native apps too.
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@elly @domi Users in the US don't have a tap-to-pay option on GrapheneOS itself. Users in the UK and EU have multiple options available for it including at least in the EU multiple which work without Google Play.
There's a large open source app ecosystem which works without Google Play and many mainstream apps too. It's still a large app ecosystem.
There's hardware-based virtualization now for non-native apps now which is their focus for it while our focus will be using it for native apps too.
> stay away from GrapheneOS's toxic community
> never been to your chats, so I won't comment whether that's true or not
It's the postmarketOS community and many other parts of the open source community which are toxic. It's their project members and community members heavily participating in bullying and harassment not only towards our founder and team but also our community. Our community chat rooms are heavily targeted with endless raids including from YOUR toxic community.
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> stay away from GrapheneOS's toxic community
> never been to your chats, so I won't comment whether that's true or not
It's the postmarketOS community and many other parts of the open source community which are toxic. It's their project members and community members heavily participating in bullying and harassment not only towards our founder and team but also our community. Our community chat rooms are heavily targeted with endless raids including from YOUR toxic community.
@elly @domi Claiming our team and community are toxic is DARVO attacks. Your community is raiding our rooms, engaging in endless personal attacks and libelous fabricated stories but somehow it's our community not doing those things towards you folks which is the toxic one. How is that meant to work? These false claims go right along with the claims that our founder is insane, delusional, etc. and are pervasive in the postmarketOS community and elsewhere. Our community isn't doing that, yours is.
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@elly @domi Claiming our team and community are toxic is DARVO attacks. Your community is raiding our rooms, engaging in endless personal attacks and libelous fabricated stories but somehow it's our community not doing those things towards you folks which is the toxic one. How is that meant to work? These false claims go right along with the claims that our founder is insane, delusional, etc. and are pervasive in the postmarketOS community and elsewhere. Our community isn't doing that, yours is.
@GrapheneOS @elly @domi looks like pmOS has a code of conduct team. if you've reported the raids and the community members behind the raids haven't received any repercussions, I would definitely start mentally putting pmOS in the "best stay away" category -
@GrapheneOS @elly @domi looks like pmOS has a code of conduct team. if you've reported the raids and the community members behind the raids haven't received any repercussions, I would definitely start mentally putting pmOS in the "best stay away" category@mei @domi @elly @GrapheneOS As far as I know we have not received anything like that so far.
I am also not aware of any team member actively raiding GrapheneOS chats. If you have proof it would be nice to link to them because so far it's mostly been "trust me bro" (no offense intended).
Take care -
R ActivityRelay shared this topic
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@mei @domi @elly @GrapheneOS As far as I know we have not received anything like that so far.
I am also not aware of any team member actively raiding GrapheneOS chats. If you have proof it would be nice to link to them because so far it's mostly been "trust me bro" (no offense intended).
Take care@mei @GrapheneOS @domi @elly note that I have PMs disabled on fediverse, if you want to share these in PM please do so to "f_" on irc.oftc.net or @funderscore:postmarketos.org -
@mei @GrapheneOS @domi @elly note that I have PMs disabled on fediverse, if you want to share these in PM please do so to "f_" on irc.oftc.net or @funderscore:postmarketos.org@GrapheneOS @domi @elly @mei (I am *not* part of the CoC team, but I can reach out to them as needed)
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@GrapheneOS @domi @elly @mei (I am *not* part of the CoC team, but I can reach out to them as needed)@GrapheneOS @domi @elly @mei you can also email coc@postmarketos.org by the way, that'd be the preferred option.
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@mei @domi @elly @GrapheneOS As far as I know we have not received anything like that so far.
I am also not aware of any team member actively raiding GrapheneOS chats. If you have proof it would be nice to link to them because so far it's mostly been "trust me bro" (no offense intended).
Take care> I am also not aware of any team member actively raiding GrapheneOS chats.
We said the postmarketOS has done that not the postmarketOS team.
> If you have proof it would be nice to link to them
We do have it.
> so far it's mostly been "trust me bro"
Multiple people on the postmarketOS team have seen what one of them posted on Twitter along with many others. There's no point claiming that it never happened.
We're talking to @ariadne about it now rather than here.
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> I am also not aware of any team member actively raiding GrapheneOS chats.
We said the postmarketOS has done that not the postmarketOS team.
> If you have proof it would be nice to link to them
We do have it.
> so far it's mostly been "trust me bro"
Multiple people on the postmarketOS team have seen what one of them posted on Twitter along with many others. There's no point claiming that it never happened.
We're talking to @ariadne about it now rather than here.
@fun @domi @elly @mei @ariadne We removed some of our posts here to talk about it privately instead which we are doing and if you stop making accusations towards us then we'll stop posting about it here. We're entirely capable of finding and posting an archive of the deleted posts on Twitter if people are denying it happened, but as far as we know the person who did it is not denying that it happened. As a general rule we're not going to report a project itself due to bad experiences with it.
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> I am also not aware of any team member actively raiding GrapheneOS chats.
We said the postmarketOS has done that not the postmarketOS team.
> If you have proof it would be nice to link to them
We do have it.
> so far it's mostly been "trust me bro"
Multiple people on the postmarketOS team have seen what one of them posted on Twitter along with many others. There's no point claiming that it never happened.
We're talking to @ariadne about it now rather than here.
@GrapheneOS @domi @elly @mei @ariadne
I'm glad you're talking to @ariadne about this. She's nice.
I hope both projects can collaborate on things one day, I think that would be very beneficial tech-wise, as you (GrapheneOS team) have a lot of insights on security and such for example, so we can share notes etc...
Take care of yourself!
