We know exactly what he looks like because we just do
-
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Wow what a good entity that is totally deserving of my worship.
Nothing says divinity better than petty human emotions like jealousy, and open threats to my unborn children and grandchildren.
Also jealousy is illegal according to the the Christian Constitution.
-
Looking at actual translation at the first one, https://quran.com/al-baqarah/191
"Kill them wherever you come upon them and drive them out of the places from which they have driven you out. For persecution is far worse than killing. And do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they attack you there. If they do so, then fight them—that is the reward of the disbelievers."
If you read the verse before it, https://quran.com/al-baqarah/190, the Quran talks about it in the context of war.
"Fight in the cause of Allah ˹only˺ against those who wage war against you, but do not exceed the limits. Allah does not like transgressors."
The passage clearly says about defending, in the context war. And do it only against the aggressors. And also not to exceed the limits, which means proportionate response.
It makes sense to fight back. Akin to the Ukrainian defending against Russian invasion.
The passage clearly says about defending, in the context of war.
Could this be interpreted as in any type of war, and not just a defensive war? It doesn't seem clear to me via the english translation.
And also not to exceed the limits, which means proportionate response.
Could this not also mean the limits interpreted through other passages elsewhere in the Scripture?
-
You know how we tell the story about brutally murdering the Son of God? We want to put that on display, all the time, in His House, so He never ever forgets.
God is love!
In Christianity, the crucifixion is the moment of victory. Christ’s sinless death is what allows mankind to be redeemed, and that was the plan all along. So they see the crucifixion as holy, though it is also mourned. It is used as a reminder of the love God has for his people and as a sort of “try to be better” thing.
-
I mean any likeness of anything anywhere by the looks of it. So I guess that would include both?
any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
So making fish statues are ok, but don't worship a fish statue as an idol. I don't see an issue with making a likeness to something as long as you're not worshipping it
-
The passage clearly says about defending, in the context of war.
Could this be interpreted as in any type of war, and not just a defensive war? It doesn't seem clear to me via the english translation.
And also not to exceed the limits, which means proportionate response.
Could this not also mean the limits interpreted through other passages elsewhere in the Scripture?
Could this be interpreted as in any type of war, and not just a defensive war? It doesn't seem clear to me via the english translation.
2:190 says to fight only against those who wage war against you. So it sounds like defensive war to me.
Could this not also mean the limits interpreted through other passages elsewhere in the Scripture?
So I clicked on the tafsir of this verse by scholars more knowledgeable than me:
"(but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.)
This Ayah means,
Fight for the sake of Allah and do not be transgressors,' such as, by committing prohibitions. Al-Hasan Al-Basri stated that transgression (indicated by the Ayah), "includes mutilating the dead, theft (from the captured goods), killing women, children and old people who do not participate in warfare, killing priests and residents of houses of worship, burning down trees and killing animals without real benefit." This is also the opinion of IbnAbbas,Umar binAbdul-`Aziz, Muqatil bin Hayyan and others. Muslim recorded in his Sahih that Buraydah narrated....
(Fight for the sake of Allah and fight those who disbelieve in Allah. Fight, but do not steal (from the captured goods), commit treachery, mutilate (the dead), or kill a child, or those who reside in houses of worship.)
It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Ibn `Umar said, "A woman was found dead during one of the Prophet's battles and the Prophet then forbade killing women and children. " There are many other Hadiths on this subject"
So my bad, it's not talking about proportionate response. But it teaches the limits of how to conduct yourself during such war.
-
any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
So making fish statues are ok, but don't worship a fish statue as an idol. I don't see an issue with making a likeness to something as long as you're not worshipping it
Apologies, I misunderstood your question. I do wonder if you've seen how Catholics treat such depictions. I'd say they worship it or at least use it as an idol.
-
The passage clearly says about defending, in the context of war.
Could this be interpreted as in any type of war, and not just a defensive war? It doesn't seem clear to me via the english translation.
And also not to exceed the limits, which means proportionate response.
Could this not also mean the limits interpreted through other passages elsewhere in the Scripture?
Person from Muslim background here. Let me try to explain. As with all sacred texts, Quran includes many contradicting parts, where other are open to interpretation. Also, Quran was "revealed" as small passages over Muhammad's life. He claimed to receive messages in the context of the current events. To complicate things even more, standard Quran is not compiled in chronological order.
Passages from early Islam where Muslims were a persecuted minority, the texts are more about peace and harmony. As Muslims increased in numbers and influence, the passages have also turned more aggressive.
For example 2:62 says
Indeed, the believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabians—whoever ˹truly˺ believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good will have their reward with their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor will they grieve.
The final ones are indeed about any war, and dominating the space they exist in. Give them ultimatum and then fight until they ask for mercy.
The main message to take here is, by choosing which part to quote, you can make it say anything you want. Sounds familiar?
-
Could this be interpreted as in any type of war, and not just a defensive war? It doesn't seem clear to me via the english translation.
2:190 says to fight only against those who wage war against you. So it sounds like defensive war to me.
Could this not also mean the limits interpreted through other passages elsewhere in the Scripture?
So I clicked on the tafsir of this verse by scholars more knowledgeable than me:
"(but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.)
This Ayah means,
Fight for the sake of Allah and do not be transgressors,' such as, by committing prohibitions. Al-Hasan Al-Basri stated that transgression (indicated by the Ayah), "includes mutilating the dead, theft (from the captured goods), killing women, children and old people who do not participate in warfare, killing priests and residents of houses of worship, burning down trees and killing animals without real benefit." This is also the opinion of IbnAbbas,Umar binAbdul-`Aziz, Muqatil bin Hayyan and others. Muslim recorded in his Sahih that Buraydah narrated....
(Fight for the sake of Allah and fight those who disbelieve in Allah. Fight, but do not steal (from the captured goods), commit treachery, mutilate (the dead), or kill a child, or those who reside in houses of worship.)
It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Ibn `Umar said, "A woman was found dead during one of the Prophet's battles and the Prophet then forbade killing women and children. " There are many other Hadiths on this subject"
So my bad, it's not talking about proportionate response. But it teaches the limits of how to conduct yourself during such war.
Given the context of when it was written, those seem like admirable limits on an army.
-
This post did not contain any content.
Idolatrous iconography is cute, but the real elephant in the room with Abrahamics these days is bibliolatry. Hate to make a Potter reference, but so many of these people think their God is Tom Riddle.
It takes a finger to point at the moon, so look at the moon, not the finger.
-
For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Wow what a good entity that is totally deserving of my worship.
Nothing says divinity better than petty human emotions like jealousy, and open threats to my unborn children and grandchildren.
The God of the Bible is literally a Monster.
-
Literally the second commandment:
2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
So no Cat Pictures? This is not a world I want to live in.
-
That last bit sounds like the lake of fire in the Bible: a threat of posthumous torture rather than instructions for the living.
-
any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.
So making fish statues are ok, but don't worship a fish statue as an idol. I don't see an issue with making a likeness to something as long as you're not worshipping it
No, it clearly says: "You shall not make...", and then adds the reason at the end. It seems God doesn't even want you making it for any reason, because you might use it to worship. Banning images eliminates the temptation.
-
That last bit sounds like the lake of fire in the Bible: a threat of posthumous torture rather than instructions for the living.
You are correct. It's a long text with many parts, so you can make it say anything by conveniently picking your quotes.
-
No symbols allowed or no idols allowed?
One way you can think of idolatry is by analogy to the concept of map and territory. The map is not the territory, and that can be far more of a rabbit hole than it sounds at first glance. For instance, you do not experience reality directly, full stop. Your entire experience of life is actually a living map of life generated by reality's interactions with your senses which are then filtered and interpreted by the rest of your bodily and cognitive systems.
And so it is for those who believe in and cultivate a relationship with their deities - a direct experience that will always be impossible to fully achieve, and is nevertheless expected they spend their lives chasing.
-
In Christianity, the crucifixion is the moment of victory. Christ’s sinless death is what allows mankind to be redeemed, and that was the plan all along. So they see the crucifixion as holy, though it is also mourned. It is used as a reminder of the love God has for his people and as a sort of “try to be better” thing.
Christ’s sinless death is what allows mankind to be redeemed, and that was the plan all along.
A good 'ol death cult.
-
Apologies, I misunderstood your question. I do wonder if you've seen how Catholics treat such depictions. I'd say they worship it or at least use it as an idol.
"The only moral idol is my idol."
-
This post did not contain any content.
And then there's korean Jesus.
-
Literally the second commandment:
2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
True, but also the commandments aren't actually numbered. IIRC, there are 13 "Shalls" and "Shall nots". So Catholics lump that section in with the first (no other gods, etc.) while the Protestants make room by joining "don't covet wife/property". There's arguments to support both sides when looking at the historical context but on that specific issue I'd lean toward the Catholic interpretation making more sense considering god is telling people to make statues shortly after (Exodus 25:18). Either way it's silly to be arguing over rules that bronze age people invented.
-
And then there's korean Jesus.
Hello! It looks like you're interested in this conversation, but you don't have an account yet.
Getting fed up of having to scroll through the same posts each visit? When you register for an account, you'll always come back to exactly where you were before, and choose to be notified of new replies (either via email, or push notification). You'll also be able to save bookmarks and upvote posts to show your appreciation to other community members.
With your input, this post could be even better 💗
Register Login