PS. With all the Discord stuff, in case you wonder why you never see me promoting Matrix, it’s not because it’s a usability nightmare (which it is) but because it’s made by the kind of people who’d be happy to call ICE a customer.

katzenberger

In addition? I'd pick a fallback solution that works on a different type of infrastructure. @delta for instance.

Karl Heinz Häsliprinz

@aral @ahltorp @element They are funny.
- We don’t sell to organisations who are committing human rights abuses
then proceed to say they sell to:
- US Department of Defense, German Bundeswehr, UK Ministry of Defence

Like, hello? No human rights abuses ever by those three, nooooo, could never happen...

Jaime Herazo

@aral @element
Oh for fuck's sake! I hate this timeline!

Aral Balkan

@KarlHeinzHasliP @ahltorp @element Depends who you consider to be human, I guess.

Aral Balkan

@jherazob @element You and I both, Jaime, you and I both.

maybenot

@kravietz @couscous @aral @element @ahltorp

I see it that opponents view it as "blood money" that poisons the project, and supporters see it as "the police/military have these fuckloads of money, might as well have them go to some commons"

now, is "tapping MIC budgets for a good cause" enough to outweigh "selling your services to the oppressor"?

two things can be true at once, and there's an (at least perceived) risk of the project getting too chummy with the violence-dispensing institutions

Misuse Case

@aral @precariousmind @element Hahaha. So next time I see someone putting down Signal and boosting Matrix, I can say “signal isn’t run by fascist bootlickers.”

mpsi

Imagine regaining effective, broadly inclusive democratic control where it was lost (or winning it where it was absent). Then the problem of slave-patrol mentality will be easy to solve. Otherwise, you will end up recreating the same thing under a new name. It's not the name that is the issue, it's the shape of the institution within societies that don't adhere to democratic standards.

Misuse Case

@mpsi @aral @element >> Your position implies that the police is an enemy and that states shouldn't have any kind of law enforcement called "police".

Where have you been, bruh?

mpsi

@MisuseCase @aral @element Do you know that there are many different countries on this planet and some of them function much better than the US?

David Gerard

@Tamtam @zzt @aral @element nobody wants to run a box (cos it sucks arse), everybody just wants to use a service

this leads directly to discord

and less directly to Matrix sponsored by ICE

David Gerard

@Tamtam @zzt @aral @element and you can't educate people to want to run a box actually, i run one cos i'm a control addict and it still fucking sucks to have to do

David Gerard

@mlen @zzt @aral @element if Signal had groups of group chats, that's Discord right there

[object Object]

@davidgerard @mlen @aral @element I fucking should

Marta Threadbare

@MisuseCase @aral @precariousmind @element b-but they tried to hid that almost all of their funding came from the fucking CIA for a decade...

maybenot

@kravietz @couscous @aral @element @ahltorp

the imho central point is, will the relationship with institutional customers shape the service and over time start to resemble the relationship that bigtech has. and that is a hard to quantify risk as a user.

Couscous

@kravietz
those alternatives make no sense, but I guess you already know it
TBH I don't know when you can start saying france is fascist (US is falling more blattantly, even though our gov follow them at every step)
what france is though is plain and simple : colonialist and white supremacist (or tries to be at least), and I can't see how taking their money isn't helping crushing humanitarian views, from domestic or international point of view (think palestine...)

@aral @element @ahltorp