Jack Dorsey skipped ActivityPub, built AtProto, lost Twitter, funded Bluesky, watched it become a company with VCs and a board, said it was "repeating all the mistakes," left, and now funds Nostr.
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@thisismissem @skarnio @baralheia
The assertion has been made that AT Protocol exhibits quadratic scaling amoung independent nodes. If this is the case, it is very hard to see how it can scale 'wide.' And, we seem to be seeing evidence of this as people like Blacksky attempt to do so.
The reason for concern about this is the political environment we live in where bad actors can, and do, acquire control of social media networks and assert political influence thereby.
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@mastodonmigration @skarnio @baralheia AT Protocol doesn't exhibit quadratic scaling in practice.
You can configure any network in its least optimal form and therefore create inefficiencies.
It's just like AT Protocol's properties applied to ActivityPub create some really weird outcomes. Trying to deploy AT Protocol as you would ActivityPub is ignoring the fact that these protocols have different network topologies.
We can find ways that AP, too, performs horribly.
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@skarnio @vetehinen @mastodonmigration @baralheia but as we've previously discussed, AT Protocol isn't going to live with Bluesky PBC, it's being standardised at the IETF, where a working group is in the final stages of being setup.
Also, historically, ActivityPub was based on a technology Evan's startup created, and it only later became ActivityPub through standardisation efforts.
@skarnio @vetehinen @mastodonmigration @baralheia
With all due respect to everyone in this thread, we're just wasting time with these conversations that would be better spent on pushing the fediverse forward and making it more welcoming to everyone.
Yes, I am just as frustrated that a VC-funded fediverse competitor has gained so much more traction, but we're not going to catch up unless we acknowledge and fix the problems keeping, and pushing, people out.
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@mastodonmigration @thisismissem @baralheia Well, and more likely, what happens if the PBC can't find a business model and shuts down?
@timbray @mastodonmigration @baralheia by the time PBC shutsdown, we should be well along the way to standardisation at IETF, and more players in the ecosystem means less importance of one entity.
What would happen if Mastodon gGmbH/Inc disappeared tomorrow? It'd significantly hurt the fediverse too, because of how much of the fediverse is concentrated there.
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@skarnio @vetehinen @mastodonmigration @baralheia but as we've previously discussed, AT Protocol isn't going to live with Bluesky PBC, it's being standardised at the IETF, where a working group is in the final stages of being setup.
Also, historically, ActivityPub was based on a technology Evan's startup created, and it only later became ActivityPub through standardisation efforts.
@thisismissem @vetehinen @mastodonmigration @baralheia That's right. For my part, I will eagerly await the complete independence of AT from Bluesky PBC to propose its inclusion in the content of @rede regarding Open Social Web.
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@mastodonmigration @skarnio @baralheia AT Protocol doesn't exhibit quadratic scaling in practice.
You can configure any network in its least optimal form and therefore create inefficiencies.
It's just like AT Protocol's properties applied to ActivityPub create some really weird outcomes. Trying to deploy AT Protocol as you would ActivityPub is ignoring the fact that these protocols have different network topologies.
We can find ways that AP, too, performs horribly.
@thisismissem @skarnio @baralheia
"AT Protocol doesn't exhibit quadratic scaling in practice."
Respectfully, it certainly seems to. Understanding that there are advantages, but even your example of Blacksky having to build a massive resource scaled to all users on the network in order to be independent of Bluesky PBC demonstrates that any such enterprise will have the same requirement.
Replicated across all such efforts, this seems like the definition of quadratic scaling.
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@thisismissem @mastodonmigration @baralheia Great. Our main problem isn't technology, but politics... the more independent we can be from corporations, the better. I'll look into this information. Thank you!
Here are links to help read more about what Emelia said.
Independent PLC Directory:
https://atproto.com/blog/plc-directory-orgAT on IETF:
https://atproto.com/blog/taking-at-to-the-ietf
Creating the Working Group:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/atp/about/ -
@thisismissem @mastodonmigration @baralheia My analysis assumes a network architecture in which each node is a major participant in the functionality of the network, because as I argue in the piece, from a power distribution perspective of decentralization, it is important. What I describe in the piece is that if you want more than a pantheon of gods-eye view participants, then not having addressed delivery means that the system can't scale down.
And this is true: you can run a gotosocial node that isn't *dependent* on other major players in the network, and it scales down great.
The question is whether or not that matters and is important to people. Maybe it doesn't, I don't know. It matters to me, though.
@cwebber @thisismissem @baralheia
"...not having addressed delivery means that the system can't scale down"
Getting back to the subject of 'quadratic scaling', unless completely missing the point, which is very possible, this seems to be the crux of the matter. There needs to be a mechanism for independent elements to 'see' everything. If that mechanism scales relative to the total network, you have quadratic scaling. If it scales relative to the element size you have linear scaling.
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@cwebber @thisismissem @baralheia
"...not having addressed delivery means that the system can't scale down"
Getting back to the subject of 'quadratic scaling', unless completely missing the point, which is very possible, this seems to be the crux of the matter. There needs to be a mechanism for independent elements to 'see' everything. If that mechanism scales relative to the total network, you have quadratic scaling. If it scales relative to the element size you have linear scaling.
@mastodonmigration @cwebber @baralheia I could build an application that tracks just its users, doesn't use a relay, doesn't have a full-network view, and talks directly to PDSes. That's possible in AT Protocol's architecture. It's just not the main way people do things because it comes with trade-offs, just as message passing comes with its own trade-offs.
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If ATProto can overcome its origins and single point of failure, great.
But it's gross to gaslight ActivityPub developers that those origins don't exist and it never happened, and don't talk about them when strangers are watching.
Well, here's another shoutout to WAFRN for allowing me to have an account rooted in the Fediverse, that allows me to interact without a bridge to everyone on Bluesky, thus somewhat getting over that potential SPF (in that if Bluesky's relays completely go down, my account and its Fediverse connections still remain)
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@mastodonmigration @cwebber @baralheia I could build an application that tracks just its users, doesn't use a relay, doesn't have a full-network view, and talks directly to PDSes. That's possible in AT Protocol's architecture. It's just not the main way people do things because it comes with trade-offs, just as message passing comes with its own trade-offs.
@thisismissem @cwebber @baralheia
Sure, but that's not a decentralized global social network. Again, recognizing that there are many things that AT Proto excels at, and that message passing has its own problems, the subject at hand is how independent nodes scale.
The reason for this focus is that networks that scale linearly as they go wide are inherently easier to scale wide, and therefore better are distributing power across the network.
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@dansup Nostr is a good idea, unfortunately nobody is talking to each other and everyone wants funding from the same wallet.
Nostr is a great idea, until one goes on it and realizes there is close to zero moderation on it, and that among its posters are many neo-nazis and scammers.
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@thisismissem @cwebber @baralheia
Sure, but that's not a decentralized global social network. Again, recognizing that there are many things that AT Proto excels at, and that message passing has its own problems, the subject at hand is how independent nodes scale.
The reason for this focus is that networks that scale linearly as they go wide are inherently easier to scale wide, and therefore better are distributing power across the network.
@mastodonmigration @cwebber @baralheia why isn't it? You could each run your own PDS and host your own copy of the app. We could still see everything between us.
tbh, I'm kinda sick of being lectured by a guy who works at Meta on decentralization. Come collect your paycheck from the fediverse, make that work, then you can lecture me about decentralization.
Edit: Also, no mastodon node has a full view of the network. The argument you're making is fundamentally flawed my dude.
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@mastodonmigration @cwebber @baralheia why isn't it? You could each run your own PDS and host your own copy of the app. We could still see everything between us.
tbh, I'm kinda sick of being lectured by a guy who works at Meta on decentralization. Come collect your paycheck from the fediverse, make that work, then you can lecture me about decentralization.
Edit: Also, no mastodon node has a full view of the network. The argument you're making is fundamentally flawed my dude.
@thisismissem @mastodonmigration @baralheia Hey, let's be nice.
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@mastodonmigration @cwebber @baralheia why isn't it? You could each run your own PDS and host your own copy of the app. We could still see everything between us.
tbh, I'm kinda sick of being lectured by a guy who works at Meta on decentralization. Come collect your paycheck from the fediverse, make that work, then you can lecture me about decentralization.
Edit: Also, no mastodon node has a full view of the network. The argument you're making is fundamentally flawed my dude.
@thisismissem @cwebber @baralheia
"works at Meta..." ???
Haven't work for anyone in 40 years, and am sorry that you have decided to take this discussion in the direction of ad homimem.
Again, thank you for engaging in this conversation.
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@dansup capitalists just canβt stop capitalizing. The freedom and means to do something different butβ¦insanity is doing something the same way each time and expecting a different result every time.
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@timbray @mastodonmigration @baralheia by the time PBC shutsdown, we should be well along the way to standardisation at IETF, and more players in the ecosystem means less importance of one entity.
What would happen if Mastodon gGmbH/Inc disappeared tomorrow? It'd significantly hurt the fediverse too, because of how much of the fediverse is concentrated there.
@thisismissem @mastodonmigration @baralheia The problem is money. It's not cheap to run that network. You have personal experience of how hard it is to squeeze money out for important social-media work. Who's going to pay to keep it on the air?
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@thisismissem @mastodonmigration @cwebber is there a list or directory of independent Bluesky relays and AppViews somewhere?
@baralheia @thisismissem @mastodonmigration relays: I think this is more or less complete: https://compare.hose.cam, though I think it's missing these new ones: https://sri.leaflet.pub/3mddrqk5ays27.
I've recently looked at which of them really cover the whole network, I'm working on setting up a website with live stats on that: https://bsky.app/profile/mackuba.eu/post/3mdhbbocmrc26
AppViews: for Bluesky microblogging I think right now there's only Bluesky's and Blacksky's that are live & public.
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Decentralization isn't supposed to make things easier for the people using it. It's not supposed to be a better social "app." That's not the point. The whole reason for decentralization is to prevent admin abuse. You put up with a little more hassle as a user, and when the admin sells you out to Nazis, you'll be ready to adapt. Then sellouts don't take over the network, and nobody gets their elections rigged in favor of some tyrannical monster, or whatever.
Criticizing Activitypub for having an optional server that has too many people on it is fine, but you can't equate that to a network run by crummy venture capitalists who worked for Twitter, that won't function without permission from one central authority.
CC: @mastodonmigration@mastodon.online @baralheia@dragonchat.org@cy @mastodonmigration @baralheia @thisismissem Nobody at Bluesky worked at Twitter
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@cy @mastodonmigration @baralheia @thisismissem Nobody at Bluesky worked at Twitter
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@thisismissem @mastodonmigration @baralheia The problem is money. It's not cheap to run that network. You have personal experience of how hard it is to squeeze money out for important social-media work. Who's going to pay to keep it on the air?
@timbray @mastodonmigration @baralheia but that's a universal problem no matter the protocol. The fediverse struggles so much for funding. AT Protocol projects too struggle for funding. As for Bluesky, I think it's too early to say. There could be things they successfully monetize to help make them sustainable without more investment, only time will tell.
Who pays to keep all the fediverse servers online, develop the projects, etc. i think adding up the cumulative costs across operators would be quite insightful, because many a fediverse server has shutdown due to money.
