Should citizens of your country that live elsewhere have the right to vote?
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@hypostase Feel free to substitute "migrant" or "emigrant" for "expatriate" in the poll if that helps you answer the question better.
@evan
It doesn't.I have complicated perspectives on voting, its uses and limitations.
More importantly, the use of expatriate in the question encourages a particular perspective that I'm very much opposed to, and necessarily skews the results.
If my perspective on voting wasn't complicated, I'd lean towards banning those who consider themselves expatriate from voting anywhere.
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@evan
It doesn't.I have complicated perspectives on voting, its uses and limitations.
More importantly, the use of expatriate in the question encourages a particular perspective that I'm very much opposed to, and necessarily skews the results.
If my perspective on voting wasn't complicated, I'd lean towards banning those who consider themselves expatriate from voting anywhere.
@evan
Though I do now see the question has been updated. -
@renata @mayintoronto @fabio also, as far as I can tell with some quick searching, Brazilian emigrants are in fact called "immigrants" even in Brazil. There's definitely a good research paper in that!
@evan I personally use “immigrant” on purpose since I’m white-presenting and work in tech. It’s an attempt to buck the trend of using this word for a particular kind of immigration (the kind some people don’t want).
I emigrated from Brazil because I wanted to and I acknowledge I had the privilege to do it. Many people in my position would call themselves something else.
Again, this is not meant to cause drama or unnecessary discussion, it’s a personal position!
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@evan
Even with the updated question it's complicated.I hold dual citizenship and live in a third country.
One country requires that I set foot there at least once every three years, which matches the election cycle, the other that I maintain registration.
Generally I'm in favour of as much engagement as possible for all people connected to a nation. If some are to be excluded from voting, it seems reasonable to base that on engagement if they are otherwise no longer present.
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@evan I personally use “immigrant” on purpose since I’m white-presenting and work in tech. It’s an attempt to buck the trend of using this word for a particular kind of immigration (the kind some people don’t want).
I emigrated from Brazil because I wanted to and I acknowledge I had the privilege to do it. Many people in my position would call themselves something else.
Again, this is not meant to cause drama or unnecessary discussion, it’s a personal position!
@fabio Do you use "immigrant" here in Canada? I've never heard a Brazilian here call themselves an expatriate. I've also never seen anyone use anything but "immigrant" in French to describe themselves.
Do you use "imigrante" to describe yourself in Brazil?
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@evan @mayintoronto @fabio There’s the word emigrante in Portuguese but I don’t think people use it anymore.
A lot of similar words that were used when I was still in school fell into disuse because language is dynamic like that (and that makes me old)
It’s usually two very similar words that mean different things, people keep using one of them more than the other, and the less used eventually gets replaced.
Fabio can talk about that better than me because he studied communications.
@renata @mayintoronto @fabio So, when you're in Brazil, how do you talk about brasileiros no externo ? I think it's a pretty big population, about 5m people? That's a big percentage of the total citizenship, around 200m, right? Is it an identity that you embrace, or do you mostly say "I live in Canada" or "I'm Canadian"?
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@fabio Do you use "immigrant" here in Canada? I've never heard a Brazilian here call themselves an expatriate. I've also never seen anyone use anything but "immigrant" in French to describe themselves.
Do you use "imigrante" to describe yourself in Brazil?
@evan Yes to all! There’s also a thing about “imigrante” in Brazil that requires some explanation:
Brazil is not as diverse as it thinks it is - especially compared to Canada. There’s a certain fascination with foreigners there, everyone asks dozens of questions. It becomes a bit of a status symbol because it validates the idea that Brazil is good, actually - so much so that some people *choose* to live there.
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@evan Yes to all! There’s also a thing about “imigrante” in Brazil that requires some explanation:
Brazil is not as diverse as it thinks it is - especially compared to Canada. There’s a certain fascination with foreigners there, everyone asks dozens of questions. It becomes a bit of a status symbol because it validates the idea that Brazil is good, actually - so much so that some people *choose* to live there.
@fabio I meant the use of "imigrante" to describe Brazilian citizens living in other countries.
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@evan Yes to all! There’s also a thing about “imigrante” in Brazil that requires some explanation:
Brazil is not as diverse as it thinks it is - especially compared to Canada. There’s a certain fascination with foreigners there, everyone asks dozens of questions. It becomes a bit of a status symbol because it validates the idea that Brazil is good, actually - so much so that some people *choose* to live there.
@evan That’s because most Brazilians know it’s not one of the rich countries but it’s also not in the poor country bucket (there are many places that are worse). So, many people want to leave, but those who can’t feel validated by people who choose to come.
Brazilian identity is a very complex feeling.
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@fabio I meant the use of "imigrante" to describe Brazilian citizens living in other countries.
@evan I get it, but everything is related. Brazil is a weird place, worth visiting.
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@fabio I meant the use of "imigrante" to describe Brazilian citizens living in other countries.
@evan But yes, e.g. my mom says “Fabio immigrated to Canada, he’s an immigrant there”
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@renata @mayintoronto @fabio So, when you're in Brazil, how do you talk about brasileiros no externo ? I think it's a pretty big population, about 5m people? That's a big percentage of the total citizenship, around 200m, right? Is it an identity that you embrace, or do you mostly say "I live in Canada" or "I'm Canadian"?
@evan @mayintoronto @fabio A lot of people just say “brasileiros no exterior” - I don’t identify with that. I’m a Brazilian-Canadian.
I truly never identified with Brazil as a country for a bunch of reasons and Canada embraced me so much since the day I arrived, I am a very proud Canadian.
Every time I go to Brazil it’s not a good experience for me. I miss being at home and home is Canada. It will always be.
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@renata @mayintoronto @fabio So, when you're in Brazil, how do you talk about brasileiros no externo ? I think it's a pretty big population, about 5m people? That's a big percentage of the total citizenship, around 200m, right? Is it an identity that you embrace, or do you mostly say "I live in Canada" or "I'm Canadian"?
@evan @renata @mayintoronto I describe myself as both, depending. I feel more Canadian these days because I never felt 100% Brazilian even before I moved. Also it’s been 16 years and I don’t go back that much. When I’m there I feel like a gringo visitor most of the time - and here I’m slightly exotic.
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@renata @mayintoronto @fabio So, when you're in Brazil, how do you talk about brasileiros no externo ? I think it's a pretty big population, about 5m people? That's a big percentage of the total citizenship, around 200m, right? Is it an identity that you embrace, or do you mostly say "I live in Canada" or "I'm Canadian"?
@evan @renata @mayintoronto Also I think people who describe themselves as “Brasileiros no exterior” don’t quite embrace the country they moved to. One could write many academic papers about his sort of thing!
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@evan @mayintoronto @fabio A lot of people just say “brasileiros no exterior” - I don’t identify with that. I’m a Brazilian-Canadian.
I truly never identified with Brazil as a country for a bunch of reasons and Canada embraced me so much since the day I arrived, I am a very proud Canadian.
Every time I go to Brazil it’s not a good experience for me. I miss being at home and home is Canada. It will always be.
@renata @evan @mayintoronto @fabio I usually identify as Brazilian but last week I was imagining some kind of conversation and called myself "Canadian" in my head for the first time (I moved here in 2021).
I also often say I'm from <city where I moved for university and lived for 8 years> rather than <city I was born in and lived for 16 years>.
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@MJmusicinears I didn’t think of armed forces, or diplomats for that matter.
It is a complex web.
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R AodeRelay shared this topic
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@mayintoronto @fabio In Canada, some people who work and live abroad are called "Canadians abroad":
https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/living-abroad
I also like "snowbirds" for the very specific set of people who live abroad only during the winter.
@evan @mayintoronto @fabio
French perspective: "expat" is used for french people who live abroad, sometimes for years, but still feel more french than anything else. Foreign people who live in France might be called expat if they come from a rich country, but immigrant if coming from a poor country. So "expat" really is a marker of being part of the proper, rich, white countries, aka good old racism -
@evan @mayintoronto @fabio
French perspective: "expat" is used for french people who live abroad, sometimes for years, but still feel more french than anything else. Foreign people who live in France might be called expat if they come from a rich country, but immigrant if coming from a poor country. So "expat" really is a marker of being part of the proper, rich, white countries, aka good old racism@rakoo @mayintoronto @fabio @evan to me, "expat" carries with it the expectation that you will eventually return to home country. Immigrant does not.
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@renata @evan @mayintoronto @fabio I usually identify as Brazilian but last week I was imagining some kind of conversation and called myself "Canadian" in my head for the first time (I moved here in 2021).
I also often say I'm from <city where I moved for university and lived for 8 years> rather than <city I was born in and lived for 16 years>.
@dancer_storm I love this for you!!
My parents brought me here as a young kid and I was told we were probably never going back home. It was nice that all the kids around me looked different too, and they were all (probably) Canadians.
In my head, it wasn't long before I thought "I guess I'm a Canadian now?"
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@evan @mayintoronto @fabio
French perspective: "expat" is used for french people who live abroad, sometimes for years, but still feel more french than anything else. Foreign people who live in France might be called expat if they come from a rich country, but immigrant if coming from a poor country. So "expat" really is a marker of being part of the proper, rich, white countries, aka good old racism@rakoo @mayintoronto @fabio there are some other words for French citizens living abroad that are used here in Montreal.
