Should citizens of your country that live elsewhere have the right to vote?
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@evan Yes to all! There’s also a thing about “imigrante” in Brazil that requires some explanation:
Brazil is not as diverse as it thinks it is - especially compared to Canada. There’s a certain fascination with foreigners there, everyone asks dozens of questions. It becomes a bit of a status symbol because it validates the idea that Brazil is good, actually - so much so that some people *choose* to live there.
@fabio I meant the use of "imigrante" to describe Brazilian citizens living in other countries.
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@evan Yes to all! There’s also a thing about “imigrante” in Brazil that requires some explanation:
Brazil is not as diverse as it thinks it is - especially compared to Canada. There’s a certain fascination with foreigners there, everyone asks dozens of questions. It becomes a bit of a status symbol because it validates the idea that Brazil is good, actually - so much so that some people *choose* to live there.
@evan That’s because most Brazilians know it’s not one of the rich countries but it’s also not in the poor country bucket (there are many places that are worse). So, many people want to leave, but those who can’t feel validated by people who choose to come.
Brazilian identity is a very complex feeling.
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@fabio I meant the use of "imigrante" to describe Brazilian citizens living in other countries.
@evan I get it, but everything is related. Brazil is a weird place, worth visiting.
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@fabio I meant the use of "imigrante" to describe Brazilian citizens living in other countries.
@evan But yes, e.g. my mom says “Fabio immigrated to Canada, he’s an immigrant there”
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@renata @mayintoronto @fabio So, when you're in Brazil, how do you talk about brasileiros no externo ? I think it's a pretty big population, about 5m people? That's a big percentage of the total citizenship, around 200m, right? Is it an identity that you embrace, or do you mostly say "I live in Canada" or "I'm Canadian"?
@evan @mayintoronto @fabio A lot of people just say “brasileiros no exterior” - I don’t identify with that. I’m a Brazilian-Canadian.
I truly never identified with Brazil as a country for a bunch of reasons and Canada embraced me so much since the day I arrived, I am a very proud Canadian.
Every time I go to Brazil it’s not a good experience for me. I miss being at home and home is Canada. It will always be.
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@renata @mayintoronto @fabio So, when you're in Brazil, how do you talk about brasileiros no externo ? I think it's a pretty big population, about 5m people? That's a big percentage of the total citizenship, around 200m, right? Is it an identity that you embrace, or do you mostly say "I live in Canada" or "I'm Canadian"?
@evan @renata @mayintoronto I describe myself as both, depending. I feel more Canadian these days because I never felt 100% Brazilian even before I moved. Also it’s been 16 years and I don’t go back that much. When I’m there I feel like a gringo visitor most of the time - and here I’m slightly exotic.
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@renata @mayintoronto @fabio So, when you're in Brazil, how do you talk about brasileiros no externo ? I think it's a pretty big population, about 5m people? That's a big percentage of the total citizenship, around 200m, right? Is it an identity that you embrace, or do you mostly say "I live in Canada" or "I'm Canadian"?
@evan @renata @mayintoronto Also I think people who describe themselves as “Brasileiros no exterior” don’t quite embrace the country they moved to. One could write many academic papers about his sort of thing!
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@evan @mayintoronto @fabio A lot of people just say “brasileiros no exterior” - I don’t identify with that. I’m a Brazilian-Canadian.
I truly never identified with Brazil as a country for a bunch of reasons and Canada embraced me so much since the day I arrived, I am a very proud Canadian.
Every time I go to Brazil it’s not a good experience for me. I miss being at home and home is Canada. It will always be.
@renata @evan @mayintoronto @fabio I usually identify as Brazilian but last week I was imagining some kind of conversation and called myself "Canadian" in my head for the first time (I moved here in 2021).
I also often say I'm from <city where I moved for university and lived for 8 years> rather than <city I was born in and lived for 16 years>.
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@MJmusicinears I didn’t think of armed forces, or diplomats for that matter.
It is a complex web.
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R AodeRelay shared this topic
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@mayintoronto @fabio In Canada, some people who work and live abroad are called "Canadians abroad":
https://travel.gc.ca/travelling/living-abroad
I also like "snowbirds" for the very specific set of people who live abroad only during the winter.
@evan @mayintoronto @fabio
French perspective: "expat" is used for french people who live abroad, sometimes for years, but still feel more french than anything else. Foreign people who live in France might be called expat if they come from a rich country, but immigrant if coming from a poor country. So "expat" really is a marker of being part of the proper, rich, white countries, aka good old racism -
@evan @mayintoronto @fabio
French perspective: "expat" is used for french people who live abroad, sometimes for years, but still feel more french than anything else. Foreign people who live in France might be called expat if they come from a rich country, but immigrant if coming from a poor country. So "expat" really is a marker of being part of the proper, rich, white countries, aka good old racism@rakoo @mayintoronto @fabio @evan to me, "expat" carries with it the expectation that you will eventually return to home country. Immigrant does not.
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@renata @evan @mayintoronto @fabio I usually identify as Brazilian but last week I was imagining some kind of conversation and called myself "Canadian" in my head for the first time (I moved here in 2021).
I also often say I'm from <city where I moved for university and lived for 8 years> rather than <city I was born in and lived for 16 years>.
@dancer_storm I love this for you!!
My parents brought me here as a young kid and I was told we were probably never going back home. It was nice that all the kids around me looked different too, and they were all (probably) Canadians.
In my head, it wasn't long before I thought "I guess I'm a Canadian now?"
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@evan @mayintoronto @fabio
French perspective: "expat" is used for french people who live abroad, sometimes for years, but still feel more french than anything else. Foreign people who live in France might be called expat if they come from a rich country, but immigrant if coming from a poor country. So "expat" really is a marker of being part of the proper, rich, white countries, aka good old racism@rakoo @mayintoronto @fabio there are some other words for French citizens living abroad that are used here in Montreal.
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@evan @mayintoronto @fabio
French perspective: "expat" is used for french people who live abroad, sometimes for years, but still feel more french than anything else. Foreign people who live in France might be called expat if they come from a rich country, but immigrant if coming from a poor country. So "expat" really is a marker of being part of the proper, rich, white countries, aka good old racism@rakoo @mayintoronto @fabio @evan
I thought of myself as "expat" (though I'm not sure I ever said that out loud), when I moved from Canada to Germany and realised two things:
I come from a significantly different culture, and
I like my culture, and don't want to "assimilate" (a word Germans like to use with newcomers).I wanted to be a Canadian in Germany. Sometimes that was charming, sometimes it was very uncomfortable (for me, for them).
But I don't think I'd use the word "expat" now.
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@evan @renata @mayintoronto Also I think people who describe themselves as “Brasileiros no exterior” don’t quite embrace the country they moved to. One could write many academic papers about his sort of thing!
@fabio @renata @mayintoronto I grew up in the US, where the idea that you would retain any sense of belonging to your country of origin was considered at the very least backwards and ungrateful and sometimes borderline treasonous.
Thankfully, I think our world is developing a more complex idea of migrant identity that encompasses both country of origin and country of residence, and maybe others.
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@rakoo @mayintoronto @fabio @evan
I thought of myself as "expat" (though I'm not sure I ever said that out loud), when I moved from Canada to Germany and realised two things:
I come from a significantly different culture, and
I like my culture, and don't want to "assimilate" (a word Germans like to use with newcomers).I wanted to be a Canadian in Germany. Sometimes that was charming, sometimes it was very uncomfortable (for me, for them).
But I don't think I'd use the word "expat" now.
@deborahh @mayintoronto @fabio @evan yeah, the danger comes from the illusion that not everyone feels like this when going abroad. Everyone wants to remember where they come from, but not everyone can afford to. -
@deborahh @mayintoronto @fabio @evan yeah, the danger comes from the illusion that not everyone feels like this when going abroad. Everyone wants to remember where they come from, but not everyone can afford to.
@rakoo @mayintoronto @fabio @evan good point! Thanks, that helps me think about this.
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@evan I'm an American-Swiss, and hopefully will soon be just Swiss.
I strongly believe that emmigrants like you @evan and me should be able to vote in elections back "home", however let's face the facts. My current USA voting rights are based in my college town, a leftist bastion in a Democratic State in a Republican district.
In the time that I've been voting from abroad my vote has had no impact whatever on the outcome.
Just let me out of this madness, OK?
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@evan I am a citizen of my country living elsewhere (for nearly 17 years) and I said "no". Ireland has a huge diaspora, many of whom have never been there and don't understand the country or its culture. It broke my heart to miss out on the historic referendums legalising gay marriage (the first country in the world to do so by popular vote) and abortion, but it's the price I pay for leaving.
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@evan we should vote only where we live
