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  3. 🇨🇦 1/There's a couple things that have happened this week that have set off my alarm bells as a Canadian

🇨🇦 1/There's a couple things that have happened this week that have set off my alarm bells as a Canadian

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  • Bruce ElrickV Bruce Elrick

    @mike The return to gunboat diplomacy and the rule of might-makes-right shows the rule of law of our lifetime as somewhat the aberration in history, not the inevitable social evolution I thought it was.

    Mike FraserM This user is from outside of this forum
    Mike FraserM This user is from outside of this forum
    Mike Fraser
    wrote last edited by
    #6

    @virtuous_sloth Well said. I'm a 1970 baby so not far off from you. The biggest awakening was realizing how much of our liberal democracies were dependent on people simply adhering to a tradition of doing the right thing and how much things break apart when people stop adhering to that tradition.

    Bruce ElrickV 1 Reply Last reply
    0
    • Mike FraserM Mike Fraser

      @virtuous_sloth Well said. I'm a 1970 baby so not far off from you. The biggest awakening was realizing how much of our liberal democracies were dependent on people simply adhering to a tradition of doing the right thing and how much things break apart when people stop adhering to that tradition.

      Bruce ElrickV This user is from outside of this forum
      Bruce ElrickV This user is from outside of this forum
      Bruce Elrick
      wrote last edited by
      #7

      @mike Yes!

      I realized just this year that norms trump laws!
      (pun originally not intended but turn out to be appropriate)

      I would look at strong US constitution defenders (like 1A advocates like Mike Masnick (Techdirt)) & think perhaps they had a point in contrast to Canada with respect to our "order and good governance" attitude and our anti-hate-speech laws being possible under our Constitution's free speech provisions.

      I would think theirs was superior. But our norms are better and won out.

      Bruce ElrickV Mike FraserM 2 Replies Last reply
      0
      • Bruce ElrickV Bruce Elrick

        @mike Yes!

        I realized just this year that norms trump laws!
        (pun originally not intended but turn out to be appropriate)

        I would look at strong US constitution defenders (like 1A advocates like Mike Masnick (Techdirt)) & think perhaps they had a point in contrast to Canada with respect to our "order and good governance" attitude and our anti-hate-speech laws being possible under our Constitution's free speech provisions.

        I would think theirs was superior. But our norms are better and won out.

        Bruce ElrickV This user is from outside of this forum
        Bruce ElrickV This user is from outside of this forum
        Bruce Elrick
        wrote last edited by
        #8

        @mike Of course norms are absolutely influenced by laws. In fact, the growing understanding of the corruption of the law in the US over the last 40 years is why MAGA (or any right-wing populism) even exists.

        We are only somewhat better than the US on this. I've come to believe that our poorer productivity (absolute and relative change) compared to the US goes hand-in-hand with us being more egalitarian, more collective-oriented, and less individualistic a culture than the US.

        Mike FraserM 1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • Bruce ElrickV Bruce Elrick

          @mike Yes!

          I realized just this year that norms trump laws!
          (pun originally not intended but turn out to be appropriate)

          I would look at strong US constitution defenders (like 1A advocates like Mike Masnick (Techdirt)) & think perhaps they had a point in contrast to Canada with respect to our "order and good governance" attitude and our anti-hate-speech laws being possible under our Constitution's free speech provisions.

          I would think theirs was superior. But our norms are better and won out.

          Mike FraserM This user is from outside of this forum
          Mike FraserM This user is from outside of this forum
          Mike Fraser
          wrote last edited by
          #9

          @virtuous_sloth to digress I'm not especially fond of hate speech laws myself. I feel once you ban something it creates a curiosity that inadvertently promotes exploration of the subject being banned. However I also used to think that extremists usually hang themselves with their own words so I don't mind giving them rope. I'm not so sure about that anymore..

          G 1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • Mike FraserM Mike Fraser

            3/ I guess I'm concerned because I usually temper some of my angst by telling myself that I live in a certain information silo and that I'm probably being overly influenced by partisan opinion. But now A) people I would usually consider outside my information silo are sharing the same angst and B) Usually very sober annalists are now speaking like they're from near future dystopian science fiction.

            ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️S This user is from outside of this forum
            ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️S This user is from outside of this forum
            ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️
            wrote last edited by
            #10

            @mike
            The same information
            /warnings are coming from all directions, people are discussing this not only in Canada but also the EU, Australia, UK, and more.

            1 Reply Last reply
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            • Mike FraserM Mike Fraser

              3/ I guess I'm concerned because I usually temper some of my angst by telling myself that I live in a certain information silo and that I'm probably being overly influenced by partisan opinion. But now A) people I would usually consider outside my information silo are sharing the same angst and B) Usually very sober annalists are now speaking like they're from near future dystopian science fiction.

              Alan Langford 🇨🇦🧤🧊摏A This user is from outside of this forum
              Alan Langford 🇨🇦🧤🧊摏A This user is from outside of this forum
              Alan Langford 🇨🇦🧤🧊摏
              wrote last edited by
              #11

              @mike There are few metrics by which the USA manages to avoid falling into the category of "fascist state," most obviously, when authorities can arbitrarily designate civil disobedience as domestic terrorism. Few conservatives think fascism is a good thing, so that's the shift you're seeing.

              We're also seeing the late stage decline of the American Empire, which has been well underway for about three decades now. The problem with allowing one country to become "defender of the free world" (so-called) is that we haven't made adequate provisions for when that defender starts to truly implode.

              Mike FraserM 1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • Mike FraserM Mike Fraser

                3/ I guess I'm concerned because I usually temper some of my angst by telling myself that I live in a certain information silo and that I'm probably being overly influenced by partisan opinion. But now A) people I would usually consider outside my information silo are sharing the same angst and B) Usually very sober annalists are now speaking like they're from near future dystopian science fiction.

                G This user is from outside of this forum
                G This user is from outside of this forum
                Glitzersachen
                wrote last edited by
                #12

                @mike

                > Usually very sober annalists are now speaking like they're from near future dystopian science fiction.

                They are. That's how they finance the time travel.

                1 Reply Last reply
                0
                • Mike FraserM Mike Fraser

                  @virtuous_sloth to digress I'm not especially fond of hate speech laws myself. I feel once you ban something it creates a curiosity that inadvertently promotes exploration of the subject being banned. However I also used to think that extremists usually hang themselves with their own words so I don't mind giving them rope. I'm not so sure about that anymore..

                  G This user is from outside of this forum
                  G This user is from outside of this forum
                  Glitzersachen
                  wrote last edited by
                  #13

                  @mike @virtuous_sloth

                  The problem are not the extremist, currently, though. The problem are the "normal" people, the voters. Wo enabled the current shitshow.

                  1 Reply Last reply
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                  • Mike FraserM Mike Fraser

                    🇨🇦 1/There's a couple things that have happened this week that have set off my alarm bells as a Canadian.
                    First I overheard a conversation between some people that I would shamefully profile as upper middle class WASPs :
                    "I'm not worried about aliens invading I'm worried about the Americans invading"
                    Another conversation I had, again with someone that I would traditionally label as conservative "There's no way we'll travel to the US anymore, it's just not safe"

                    Innocuous In Innisfil 🇨🇦P This user is from outside of this forum
                    Innocuous In Innisfil 🇨🇦P This user is from outside of this forum
                    Innocuous In Innisfil 🇨🇦
                    wrote last edited by
                    #14

                    @mike
                    I think Trump's attack on Venezuela, and kidnapping of Maduro, accelerated Canadian's distrust of the U.S. I thought about what I would do in the face of an invasion and I seriously considered asking my brother for my old firearms that I gave to him 40 years ago. A golf buddy was here yesterday to get help regripping his clubs and thinks a militia is needed immediately to bolster our forces. My neighbour thinks we're in a race to see what comes first - U.S troops occupying Ottawa or Trump stroking out on fast food.
                    This week made it clear. There are no controls on Trump's behavior. His actions are impulsive and lack any element of understanding cause and effect. You cannot deal with him in a diplomatic way because he's not rational. Common sense arguments and facts have no affect. It's hard to feel confident in the future when faced with that reality.

                    Mike FraserM 1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • Mike FraserM Mike Fraser

                      3/ I guess I'm concerned because I usually temper some of my angst by telling myself that I live in a certain information silo and that I'm probably being overly influenced by partisan opinion. But now A) people I would usually consider outside my information silo are sharing the same angst and B) Usually very sober annalists are now speaking like they're from near future dystopian science fiction.

                      M. GrégoireM This user is from outside of this forum
                      M. GrégoireM This user is from outside of this forum
                      M. Grégoire
                      wrote last edited by
                      #15

                      @mike The main #CanPol podcast Iisten to has been taking Pres. Trump seriously for a long time: https://www.readtheline.ca/podcast

                      For too long Canadians have thought they were immune from the dangers of the world. The last time Canada had military spending higher than 2% of GDP was while Brian Mulroney was PM; finally we're investing in hard power again. And our economic weakness vis-à-vis the Americans is another danger: the richer they are, the easier it is for them to push us around.

                      Mike FraserM 1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • Bruce ElrickV Bruce Elrick

                        @mike Of course norms are absolutely influenced by laws. In fact, the growing understanding of the corruption of the law in the US over the last 40 years is why MAGA (or any right-wing populism) even exists.

                        We are only somewhat better than the US on this. I've come to believe that our poorer productivity (absolute and relative change) compared to the US goes hand-in-hand with us being more egalitarian, more collective-oriented, and less individualistic a culture than the US.

                        Mike FraserM This user is from outside of this forum
                        Mike FraserM This user is from outside of this forum
                        Mike Fraser
                        wrote last edited by
                        #16

                        @virtuous_sloth When I do business with a Canadian, it's always who do you know? Do you know so and so? When I do business with Americans it's always how much, how fast? Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • Alan Langford 🇨🇦🧤🧊摏A Alan Langford 🇨🇦🧤🧊摏

                          @mike There are few metrics by which the USA manages to avoid falling into the category of "fascist state," most obviously, when authorities can arbitrarily designate civil disobedience as domestic terrorism. Few conservatives think fascism is a good thing, so that's the shift you're seeing.

                          We're also seeing the late stage decline of the American Empire, which has been well underway for about three decades now. The problem with allowing one country to become "defender of the free world" (so-called) is that we haven't made adequate provisions for when that defender starts to truly implode.

                          Mike FraserM This user is from outside of this forum
                          Mike FraserM This user is from outside of this forum
                          Mike Fraser
                          wrote last edited by
                          #17

                          @alan Or simply doesn't want the job anymore.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • Innocuous In Innisfil 🇨🇦P Innocuous In Innisfil 🇨🇦

                            @mike
                            I think Trump's attack on Venezuela, and kidnapping of Maduro, accelerated Canadian's distrust of the U.S. I thought about what I would do in the face of an invasion and I seriously considered asking my brother for my old firearms that I gave to him 40 years ago. A golf buddy was here yesterday to get help regripping his clubs and thinks a militia is needed immediately to bolster our forces. My neighbour thinks we're in a race to see what comes first - U.S troops occupying Ottawa or Trump stroking out on fast food.
                            This week made it clear. There are no controls on Trump's behavior. His actions are impulsive and lack any element of understanding cause and effect. You cannot deal with him in a diplomatic way because he's not rational. Common sense arguments and facts have no affect. It's hard to feel confident in the future when faced with that reality.

                            Mike FraserM This user is from outside of this forum
                            Mike FraserM This user is from outside of this forum
                            Mike Fraser
                            wrote last edited by
                            #18

                            @paulbusch Personally I don't think small arms would do it no matter how well organized. Actually I think it would be less patriotic and more, suicidal. However we can resist in other ways.

                            ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️S Innocuous In Innisfil 🇨🇦P 2 Replies Last reply
                            0
                            • M. GrégoireM M. Grégoire

                              @mike The main #CanPol podcast Iisten to has been taking Pres. Trump seriously for a long time: https://www.readtheline.ca/podcast

                              For too long Canadians have thought they were immune from the dangers of the world. The last time Canada had military spending higher than 2% of GDP was while Brian Mulroney was PM; finally we're investing in hard power again. And our economic weakness vis-à-vis the Americans is another danger: the richer they are, the easier it is for them to push us around.

                              Mike FraserM This user is from outside of this forum
                              Mike FraserM This user is from outside of this forum
                              Mike Fraser
                              wrote last edited by
                              #19

                              @mpjgregoire We've always, existed at the leisure of the dominant empire. Canada has never been a country that is defendable by force of arms without a lot of outside help.

                              M. GrégoireM 1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • Mike FraserM Mike Fraser

                                @paulbusch Personally I don't think small arms would do it no matter how well organized. Actually I think it would be less patriotic and more, suicidal. However we can resist in other ways.

                                ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️S This user is from outside of this forum
                                ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️S This user is from outside of this forum
                                ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️
                                wrote last edited by
                                #20

                                @mike @paulbusch
                                Ukraine uses small arms fixed on drones, and it is quite an effective defence strategy.

                                ItsDoctorNotMrsN Mike FraserM 2 Replies Last reply
                                0
                                • ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️S ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️

                                  @mike @paulbusch
                                  Ukraine uses small arms fixed on drones, and it is quite an effective defence strategy.

                                  ItsDoctorNotMrsN This user is from outside of this forum
                                  ItsDoctorNotMrsN This user is from outside of this forum
                                  ItsDoctorNotMrs
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #21

                                  @SnowyCA @mike @paulbusch

                                  I dunno, guerrillas never lose a war (hello, Afghanistan, Vietnam, and others). I think America might be able to invade Canada, but they'll never be able to keep us - largely because of individuals and small arms.

                                  On a not-unrelated note, I bought five books about conducting guerilla warfare a few days ago, and they've already arrived.

                                  We all prepare as best we can.

                                  ItsDoctorNotMrsN Mike FraserM maya_b 🇨🇦M Cdn TravelerD 4 Replies Last reply
                                  0
                                  • ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️S ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️

                                    @mike @paulbusch
                                    Ukraine uses small arms fixed on drones, and it is quite an effective defence strategy.

                                    Mike FraserM This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Mike FraserM This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Mike Fraser
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #22

                                    @SnowyCA @paulbusch Ukraine does A LOT more than just drones with grenades. They have an armoured and artillery corp that is very large as well and a mechanized infantry corp that's been fighting since the 2010s. They also get satelite Intel from Europe and the US (for now). They also benifit from the fact that the Russians have been largely incompetent with their force deployments.

                                    ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️S 1 Reply Last reply
                                    0
                                    • ItsDoctorNotMrsN ItsDoctorNotMrs

                                      @SnowyCA @mike @paulbusch

                                      I dunno, guerrillas never lose a war (hello, Afghanistan, Vietnam, and others). I think America might be able to invade Canada, but they'll never be able to keep us - largely because of individuals and small arms.

                                      On a not-unrelated note, I bought five books about conducting guerilla warfare a few days ago, and they've already arrived.

                                      We all prepare as best we can.

                                      ItsDoctorNotMrsN This user is from outside of this forum
                                      ItsDoctorNotMrsN This user is from outside of this forum
                                      ItsDoctorNotMrs
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #23

                                      @SnowyCA @mike @paulbusch

                                      Also, why do you think Chrystia Freeland is in Ukraine right now?

                                      To give advice about finances, yes. But I imagine it's also to learn how a smaller power wins a war against a larger power.

                                      ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️S 1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • Mike FraserM Mike Fraser

                                        @SnowyCA @paulbusch Ukraine does A LOT more than just drones with grenades. They have an armoured and artillery corp that is very large as well and a mechanized infantry corp that's been fighting since the 2010s. They also get satelite Intel from Europe and the US (for now). They also benifit from the fact that the Russians have been largely incompetent with their force deployments.

                                        ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️S This user is from outside of this forum
                                        ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️S This user is from outside of this forum
                                        ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #24

                                        @mike @paulbusch
                                        I realize this.
                                        I was responding to your comment about small arms, that's all. : )

                                        1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • ItsDoctorNotMrsN ItsDoctorNotMrs

                                          @SnowyCA @mike @paulbusch

                                          Also, why do you think Chrystia Freeland is in Ukraine right now?

                                          To give advice about finances, yes. But I imagine it's also to learn how a smaller power wins a war against a larger power.

                                          ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️S This user is from outside of this forum
                                          ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️S This user is from outside of this forum
                                          ❄️SnowyIn🇨🇦❄️
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #25

                                          @northernlights @mike @paulbusch

                                          That did cross my mind, thanks. : )

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