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  3. We'll see how I feel in the morning, but for now i seem to have convinced myself to actually read that fuckin anthropic paper

We'll see how I feel in the morning, but for now i seem to have convinced myself to actually read that fuckin anthropic paper

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  • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

    @seanwbruno It is not. https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.20245

    Sean 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️🤷S This user is from outside of this forum
    Sean 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️🤷S This user is from outside of this forum
    Sean 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️🤷
    wrote last edited by
    #6

    @jenniferplusplus

    MikalaiM 1 Reply Last reply
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    • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

      @seanwbruno It is not. https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.20245

      Sean 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️🤷S This user is from outside of this forum
      Sean 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️🤷S This user is from outside of this forum
      Sean 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️🤷
      wrote last edited by
      #7

      @jenniferplusplus You have entirely more stamina than I have. I just read the first sentence of the abstract and emitted a guffaw and exclaimed, out loud for the spouse to hear, "Citation needed!".

      1 Reply Last reply
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      • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

        "AI" is not actually a technology, in the way people would commonly understand that term.

        If you're feeling extremely generous, you could say that AI is a marketing term for a loose and shifting bundle of technologies that have specific useful applications.

        I am not feeling so generous.

        AI is a technocratic political project for the purpose of industrializing knowledge work. The details of how it works are a distant secondary concern to the effect it has, which is to enclose and capture all knowledge work and make it dependent on capital.

        JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
        JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
        Jenniferplusplus
        wrote last edited by
        #8

        So, back to the paper.

        "How AI Impacts Skill Formation"
        https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.20245

        The very first sentence of the abstract:

        > AI assistance produces significant productivity gains across professional domains, particularly for novice workers.

        1. The evidence for this is mixed, and the effect is small.
        2. That's not even the purpose of this study. The design of the study doesn't support drawing conclusions in this area.

        Of course, the authors will repeat this claim frequently. Which brings us back to MY priors, which is that this is largely a political document.

        aoanlaA JenniferplusplusJ CassandrichD 3 Replies Last reply
        0
        • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

          "AI" is not actually a technology, in the way people would commonly understand that term.

          If you're feeling extremely generous, you could say that AI is a marketing term for a loose and shifting bundle of technologies that have specific useful applications.

          I am not feeling so generous.

          AI is a technocratic political project for the purpose of industrializing knowledge work. The details of how it works are a distant secondary concern to the effect it has, which is to enclose and capture all knowledge work and make it dependent on capital.

          mkjM This user is from outside of this forum
          mkjM This user is from outside of this forum
          mkj
          wrote last edited by
          #9

          @jenniferplusplus How about not just capital, but also permission?

          Imagine a world in which "AI" is actually successful: it is widely, maybe even largely universally, adopted, and it actually works to deliver on its promises. (I *said* "imagine"! Bear with me.) In such a world, what happens to someone (person, company, country, whatever slicing you want to look at) who is *denied access to* this technology for whatever reason?

          The power held by those in control of allowing access to that tech…

          JenniferplusplusJ 1 Reply Last reply
          0
          • R ActivityRelay shared this topic
          • mkjM mkj

            @jenniferplusplus How about not just capital, but also permission?

            Imagine a world in which "AI" is actually successful: it is widely, maybe even largely universally, adopted, and it actually works to deliver on its promises. (I *said* "imagine"! Bear with me.) In such a world, what happens to someone (person, company, country, whatever slicing you want to look at) who is *denied access to* this technology for whatever reason?

            The power held by those in control of allowing access to that tech…

            JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
            JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
            Jenniferplusplus
            wrote last edited by
            #10

            @mkj Yeah, same thing. You can't use industrial machines without the permission of the owner.

            mkjM 1 Reply Last reply
            0
            • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

              So, back to the paper.

              "How AI Impacts Skill Formation"
              https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.20245

              The very first sentence of the abstract:

              > AI assistance produces significant productivity gains across professional domains, particularly for novice workers.

              1. The evidence for this is mixed, and the effect is small.
              2. That's not even the purpose of this study. The design of the study doesn't support drawing conclusions in this area.

              Of course, the authors will repeat this claim frequently. Which brings us back to MY priors, which is that this is largely a political document.

              aoanlaA This user is from outside of this forum
              aoanlaA This user is from outside of this forum
              aoanla
              wrote last edited by
              #11

              @jenniferplusplus I like the fact that their own research doesn't fit their lazy claim you reference, and they spend a lot of time trying to work out how the claim can be true, even though their own evidence is against it (and more in line with the mixed evidence in the literature, as you say).

              aoanlaA 1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • Sean 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️🤷S Sean 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️🤷

                @jenniferplusplus

                MikalaiM This user is from outside of this forum
                MikalaiM This user is from outside of this forum
                Mikalai
                wrote last edited by
                #12

                @seanwbruno @jenniferplusplus
                Will "is peer reviewed" change validity/or-lack of the paper?
                Should it?

                Sean 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️🤷S Kevin GranadeK 2 Replies Last reply
                0
                • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                  @mkj Yeah, same thing. You can't use industrial machines without the permission of the owner.

                  mkjM This user is from outside of this forum
                  mkjM This user is from outside of this forum
                  mkj
                  wrote last edited by
                  #13

                  @jenniferplusplus True, but I think it's safe to say that it's very possible to go through a whole life without personally touching or needing to use any industrial machinery.

                  (To be clear: I'm not arguing against you here.)

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • MikalaiM Mikalai

                    @seanwbruno @jenniferplusplus
                    Will "is peer reviewed" change validity/or-lack of the paper?
                    Should it?

                    Sean 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️🤷S This user is from outside of this forum
                    Sean 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️🤷S This user is from outside of this forum
                    Sean 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️🤷
                    wrote last edited by
                    #14

                    @mikalai @jenniferplusplus IMO, yes. However, reading the first sentence is enough for me to move on to spend my time on other things for the day.

                    MikalaiM 1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • aoanlaA aoanla

                      @jenniferplusplus I like the fact that their own research doesn't fit their lazy claim you reference, and they spend a lot of time trying to work out how the claim can be true, even though their own evidence is against it (and more in line with the mixed evidence in the literature, as you say).

                      aoanlaA This user is from outside of this forum
                      aoanlaA This user is from outside of this forum
                      aoanla
                      wrote last edited by
                      #15

                      @jenniferplusplus it reminds me a bit of the famous thing with the Flat Earth Society people who spent $20k on an expensive laser gyroscope to "prove" that the Earth was not a rotating sphere... and then spent a lot of time being very confused and upset when, of course, it measured precisely what you'd expect from a rotating spherical Earth.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                        So, back to the paper.

                        "How AI Impacts Skill Formation"
                        https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.20245

                        The very first sentence of the abstract:

                        > AI assistance produces significant productivity gains across professional domains, particularly for novice workers.

                        1. The evidence for this is mixed, and the effect is small.
                        2. That's not even the purpose of this study. The design of the study doesn't support drawing conclusions in this area.

                        Of course, the authors will repeat this claim frequently. Which brings us back to MY priors, which is that this is largely a political document.

                        JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                        JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                        Jenniferplusplus
                        wrote last edited by
                        #16

                        And now for a short break

                        JenniferplusplusJ 1 Reply Last reply
                        0
                        • Sean 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️🤷S Sean 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♀️🤷

                          @mikalai @jenniferplusplus IMO, yes. However, reading the first sentence is enough for me to move on to spend my time on other things for the day.

                          MikalaiM This user is from outside of this forum
                          MikalaiM This user is from outside of this forum
                          Mikalai
                          wrote last edited by
                          #17

                          @seanwbruno @jenniferplusplus
                          I must apologize for focusing on peer review, abstracting from article itself.
                          But, this "force-fed GenAI and slop" moment is to ask ourselves, about how we assess statements, ideas, words.
                          If an article is in area with only 50 persons in it from the whole globe, "review" should be, 5 upvotes, 7 downvotes, at moment x, and then you decide to, spend time to comprehend article, or to wait. When this is more explicit, then we have better chances, as civilization, imho

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • MikalaiM Mikalai

                            @seanwbruno @jenniferplusplus
                            Will "is peer reviewed" change validity/or-lack of the paper?
                            Should it?

                            Kevin GranadeK This user is from outside of this forum
                            Kevin GranadeK This user is from outside of this forum
                            Kevin Granade
                            wrote last edited by
                            #18

                            @mikalai @seanwbruno @jenniferplusplus the thing that is a positive signal is that it *survived* peer review, which implies that there are multiple, knowledgeable, independent scientists in the area of study of the paper that read it and came to the conclusion, "the conclusions stated by this paper are supported by the data and arguments presented in the paper".

                            This paper would not survive peer review.

                            It is a flawed system but it is not worthless.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            0
                            • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                              I just

                              I'm not actually in the habit of reading academic research papers like this. Is it normal to begin these things by confidently asserting your priors as fact, unsupported by anything in the study?

                              I suppose I should do the same, because there's no way it's not going to inform my read on this

                              mx alex tax1a - 2020 (6)A This user is from outside of this forum
                              mx alex tax1a - 2020 (6)A This user is from outside of this forum
                              mx alex tax1a - 2020 (6)
                              wrote last edited by
                              #19

                              @jenniferplusplus no, usually academic studies have a null hypothesis of "the effect we're trying to study does not exist" and are required to provide evidence sufficient to reject that hypothesis

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              0
                              • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                                "AI" is not actually a technology, in the way people would commonly understand that term.

                                If you're feeling extremely generous, you could say that AI is a marketing term for a loose and shifting bundle of technologies that have specific useful applications.

                                I am not feeling so generous.

                                AI is a technocratic political project for the purpose of industrializing knowledge work. The details of how it works are a distant secondary concern to the effect it has, which is to enclose and capture all knowledge work and make it dependent on capital.

                                Wulfy—Speaker to the machinesN This user is from outside of this forum
                                Wulfy—Speaker to the machinesN This user is from outside of this forum
                                Wulfy—Speaker to the machines
                                wrote last edited by
                                #20

                                @jenniferplusplus

                                #regulateai

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                0
                                • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                                  And now for a short break

                                  JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                  JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Jenniferplusplus
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #21

                                  I have eaten. I may be _slightly_ less cranky.

                                  Ok! The results section! For the paper "How AI Impacts Skill Formation"

                                  > we design a coding task and evaluation around a relatively new asynchronous Python library and conduct randomized experiments to understand the impact
                                  of AI assistance on task completion time and skill development

                                  ...

                                  Task completion time. Right. So, unless the difference is large enough that it could change whether or not people can learn things at all in a given practice or instructional period, I don't know why we're concerned with task completion time.

                                  Well, I mean, I have a theory. It's because "AI makes you more productive" is the central justification behind the political project, and this is largely a political document.

                                  JenniferplusplusJ [ade]K 2 Replies Last reply
                                  0
                                  • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                                    I have eaten. I may be _slightly_ less cranky.

                                    Ok! The results section! For the paper "How AI Impacts Skill Formation"

                                    > we design a coding task and evaluation around a relatively new asynchronous Python library and conduct randomized experiments to understand the impact
                                    of AI assistance on task completion time and skill development

                                    ...

                                    Task completion time. Right. So, unless the difference is large enough that it could change whether or not people can learn things at all in a given practice or instructional period, I don't know why we're concerned with task completion time.

                                    Well, I mean, I have a theory. It's because "AI makes you more productive" is the central justification behind the political project, and this is largely a political document.

                                    JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                    JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Jenniferplusplus
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #22

                                    > We find that using AI assistance to complete
                                    tasks that involve this new library resulted in a reduction in the evaluation score by 17% or two grade
                                    points (Cohen’s d = 0.738, p = 0.010). Meanwhile, we did not find a statistically significant acceleration in
                                    completion time with AI assistance.

                                    I mean, that's an enormous effect. I'm very interested in the methods section, now.

                                    > Through an in-depth qualitative analysis where we watch the screen recordings of every participant in our
                                    main study, we explain the lack of AI productivity improvement through the additional time some participants
                                    invested in interacting with the AI assistant.

                                    ...

                                    Is this about learning, or is it about productivity!? God.

                                    > We attribute the gains in skill development of the control group to the process of encountering and subsequently resolving errors independently

                                    Hm. Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle. A surface level read would suggest that the stochastic chatbot actually has a counter-instructional effect. But again, we'll see what the methods actually are.

                                    JenniferplusplusJ Paul CantrellI Cat HicksG catchC 4 Replies Last reply
                                    0
                                    • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                                      > We find that using AI assistance to complete
                                      tasks that involve this new library resulted in a reduction in the evaluation score by 17% or two grade
                                      points (Cohen’s d = 0.738, p = 0.010). Meanwhile, we did not find a statistically significant acceleration in
                                      completion time with AI assistance.

                                      I mean, that's an enormous effect. I'm very interested in the methods section, now.

                                      > Through an in-depth qualitative analysis where we watch the screen recordings of every participant in our
                                      main study, we explain the lack of AI productivity improvement through the additional time some participants
                                      invested in interacting with the AI assistant.

                                      ...

                                      Is this about learning, or is it about productivity!? God.

                                      > We attribute the gains in skill development of the control group to the process of encountering and subsequently resolving errors independently

                                      Hm. Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle. A surface level read would suggest that the stochastic chatbot actually has a counter-instructional effect. But again, we'll see what the methods actually are.

                                      JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                      JenniferplusplusJ This user is from outside of this forum
                                      Jenniferplusplus
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #23

                                      They reference these figures a lot, so I'll make sure to include them here.

                                      > Figure 1: Overview of results: (Left) We find a significant decrease in library-specific skills (conceptual
                                      understanding, code reading, and debugging) among workers using AI assistance for completing tasks with a
                                      new python library. (Right) We categorize AI usage patterns and found three high skill development patterns
                                      where participants stay cognitively engaged when using AI assistance

                                      MikalaiM JenniferplusplusJ 2 Replies Last reply
                                      0
                                      • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                                        > We find that using AI assistance to complete
                                        tasks that involve this new library resulted in a reduction in the evaluation score by 17% or two grade
                                        points (Cohen’s d = 0.738, p = 0.010). Meanwhile, we did not find a statistically significant acceleration in
                                        completion time with AI assistance.

                                        I mean, that's an enormous effect. I'm very interested in the methods section, now.

                                        > Through an in-depth qualitative analysis where we watch the screen recordings of every participant in our
                                        main study, we explain the lack of AI productivity improvement through the additional time some participants
                                        invested in interacting with the AI assistant.

                                        ...

                                        Is this about learning, or is it about productivity!? God.

                                        > We attribute the gains in skill development of the control group to the process of encountering and subsequently resolving errors independently

                                        Hm. Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle. A surface level read would suggest that the stochastic chatbot actually has a counter-instructional effect. But again, we'll see what the methods actually are.

                                        Paul CantrellI This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Paul CantrellI This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Paul Cantrell
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #24

                                        @jenniferplusplus

                                        > Learning with instruction is generally more effective than learning through struggle.

                                        I don’t think this is necessarily a true statement? Guided learning beats unproductive struggle, but learning through struggle that eventually succeed produces far better retention etc than guided learning that becomes passive/receptive. There’s a huge literature on this that I’m not up on at all, but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t break cleanly along that particular line.

                                        (I don’t think my quibble derails your larger train of thought here)

                                        0xC0DEC0DE07EAC Rachael LR JenniferplusplusJ 3 Replies Last reply
                                        0
                                        • JenniferplusplusJ Jenniferplusplus

                                          They reference these figures a lot, so I'll make sure to include them here.

                                          > Figure 1: Overview of results: (Left) We find a significant decrease in library-specific skills (conceptual
                                          understanding, code reading, and debugging) among workers using AI assistance for completing tasks with a
                                          new python library. (Right) We categorize AI usage patterns and found three high skill development patterns
                                          where participants stay cognitively engaged when using AI assistance

                                          MikalaiM This user is from outside of this forum
                                          MikalaiM This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Mikalai
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #25

                                          @jenniferplusplus
                                          Should title read there:
                                          Impact of not forming mental, due to trusting and outsourcing thinking to AI in this case.

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