The chatter in my TL suggests that we are inching closer to the point where “Trump killed Epstein” becomes a thinkable thought in the mainstream, scrawled on toilet stalls and dumpsters across the USA as a routine rallying cry.

Facts •do• matter. The thing is, vibes matter too.

This thread was prompted by this story (ht @tomcapuder and @StillIRise1963), which is •so• tantalizing and so aligned with what I •want• to be true that all my skepticism alarm bells are going off:

https://www.rawstory.com/jeffrey-epstein-2675132346/

If if we’re holding a trial or writing a history, well…I’ll wait for the dust to settle, expecting this not to hold up. Facts matter. But — no, not “but”…AND…

5/

For a vibes-based cult of personality, it’s the kiss of death for a thought like “Trump killed Epstein” to become a mainstream refrain.

It’s an exit ramp from Trumpism.

4/

…if we’re watching for a mass turn in popular sentiment against a would-be authoritarian, then it’s the vibes that matter. The guts lead and the facts follow later, if at all.

It’s significant that a mainstream (if salacious) news outlet is running this story at all. It’s significant that it’s making the rounds in my fairly fact-focused TL. I’m interested in who’s repeating this, who’s joking about it, whether it becomes an acceptable SNL gag, whether centrist pundits feel the need to start refuting it.

Vibes.

6/

@inthehands

a murder is what gets trump? after everything else? dunno, wish it were true but won't be holding my breath.

killing Ms Idaho - that'd have more impact than epstein.

@inthehands gosh, where *did* the buck stop when he died in federal custody? It's basically unknowable!

@maya_b @inthehands Trump literally joked that he could murder someone and his base wouldn't care. I think that was actually true. It's less "a murder" and more one very specific murder that ties into all the conspiracy theory craziness they have built up, especially since they seem to have been in denial all this time that Trump could have had anything to do with Epstein but apparently supposedly Democrats were in on it all. (I think back then they claimed Hillary sent the ninja assassins.)

@inthehands Totalitarian leaders never derive their power from facts. According to Hannah Arendt, the facts are a problem to be solved with propaganda, conspiracy theories, and terror. What's true is whatever the leader says is true, and may change from day to day. Fortunately for leader, his followers profess an odd mix of gullibility and cynicism, making it possible for him to make contradictory statements and not lose his power.

https://hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/-gullibility-and-cynicism-2022-01-09

*ahem*

didn't he?

what are the odds that Jean-Luc Brunel ―Epstein’s French counterpart, business partner and confederate― also ends up also dead in prison?

how convenient for the oligarchy that the two guys who were coordinating their crimes in Europe and the Américas end up dead in prison while awaiting prosecution ―which would have forced evidence discovery to be presented to and recorded by the courts.

yeah, no. those were not coincidental suicides.

@inthehands

@inthehands understanding that things can be true without being factual

*ahem*

didn't he?

what are the odds that Jean-Luc Brunel ―Epstein’s French counterpart, business partner and confederate― also ends up also dead in prison?

how convenient for the oligarchy that the two guys who were coordinating their crimes in Europe and the Américas end up dead in prison while awaiting prosecution ―which would have forced evidence discovery to be presented to and recorded by the courts.

yeah, no. those were not coincidental suicides.

@inthehands

@nazokiyoubinbou

quite. why I think Ms Idaho might have more impact - it's one of *them* not some relatively abstract dead guy (in their world)

which also means nobody will really care anyway.

@inthehands

@nazokiyoubinbou

quite. why I think Ms Idaho might have more impact - it's one of *them* not some relatively abstract dead guy (in their world)

which also means nobody will really care anyway.

@inthehands

@maya_b @nazokiyoubinbou @inthehands As Paul said, it’s all about the vibes. I’d prefer Trump be taken down over something more meaningful to our democracy, like his ties to Russia, voter suppression, etc.—for the fascism to be clearly revealed—but those don’t get the vibes. Still, for him to be wrapped up in the very things that drove the QAnon conspiracies, maybe that’s not such a bad take-down either.

@ramsey @maya_b @inthehands Oh every accusation from the right is a confession. That Trump was in on all that from the start was obvious even back then. The tricky part is just getting his base to see such a thing.

Like you say, the "vibe" is the issue. He somehow repeated the right words over and over and had them thinking only Democrats could be involved. Something about the break between then and now shifted stuff I guess? Or maybe not. I'll believe it when I see the base actually turn

@nazokiyoubinbou @maya_b @inthehands My parents live in Marjorie Taylor Greene’s district. Given that she’s making the rounds, talking about how Trump has lied and is a fraud, I wonder how the vibes are among those who put her into office.

@ramsey @maya_b @inthehands I would really like to see more of an inside view. I can say some of the diehard loyalists (like my frigging parents — they aren't openly MAGA but might as well be called closet MAGA) don't seem to have processed this yet.

@celeduc
The thing is, is probably •is• literally unknowable, in “grassy knoll” territory or worse — and, per the thread, if it shifts him in the collective imagination, knowability won’t matter a bit.

Facts didn’t build this collective delusion, and facts won’t puncture it.

So yeah, I’m trying to stay diligent about facts where facts matter. I’m trying to stay clear in my own head about what we •know• with high confidence as distinct from what merely seems •likely•.

And I’m also studying — with careful attention, as a serious matter — what popular imagination is doing to the “100% vibes” foundation of Trumpism. Popular imagination. Not the facts. The vibes.

/end

The chatter in my TL suggests that we are inching closer to the point where “Trump killed Epstein” becomes a thinkable thought in the mainstream, scrawled on toilet stalls and dumpsters across the USA as a routine rallying cry.

1/

For a vibes-based cult of personality, it’s the kiss of death for a thought like “Trump killed Epstein” to become a mainstream refrain.

It’s an exit ramp from Trumpism.

4/