Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?

@KatyElphinstone I've got to say... it's not a fun time to be empathetic.

Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?

The “jellyfish” study (2011) was influential in this, as it concluded that autistic people lacked Theory of Mind & capacity for moral reasoning.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-01-autistic-mind.html

In the fictional scenario given to participants, Sally tells a friend it’s safe to swim with jellyfish. She believes they’re harmless. The friend is stung and dies.

️

#Autism #Empathy #Neurodiversity #Psychology #TheoryofMind #ActuallyAutistic

@KatyElphinstone
Wow ok I have so many thoughts and want to research this back clinically. I’m happy to see this thread getting some action I’ll see what I can throw on and see what others have to say. Keep in mind.
The whole lack of empathy thing is least . 86-90 years old at least.

Plus there’s another angle I have to run down thanks for the thread!

@KatyElphinstone I like to say there's always another option in a forced binary choice. Like the trolley problem - group A or group B gets killed: you choose. What about slipping the points so the trolley doesn't hit either group? These contrived problems often assume there is no 3rd option, without ever considering if there is one. I think Autistics are much more likely to identify the "3rd option". I've often found myself in work situations where management have identified the "two possible" solutions, and I've been called awkward for asking about the (to me) third option they never even identified.

@cybervegan

https://philosopedia.org/the-trolley-problem-explained-navigating-ethical-dilemmas/

Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?

The “jellyfish” study (2011) was influential in this, as it concluded that autistic people lacked Theory of Mind & capacity for moral reasoning.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-01-autistic-mind.html

In the fictional scenario given to participants, Sally tells a friend it’s safe to swim with jellyfish. She believes they’re harmless. The friend is stung and dies.

️

#Autism #Empathy #Neurodiversity #Psychology #TheoryofMind #ActuallyAutistic

@gooba42

Ooh beautifully put!! I'm bookmarking your post so I don't forget.

Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).

And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.

Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.

I really enjoy analyzing things!

End of thread. 🧵

@KatyElphinstone I don’t think it’s necessarily involuntary manslaughter, but speaking as an authority on jellyfish when she wasn’t led to a tragic, fatal consequence. It certainly proves incorrect that infuriatingly pernicious axiom, “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.” #actuallyautistic

@KatyElphinstone Reading through the article this part stood put to me.

”””
The researchers tested 13 autistic adults and 13 non-autistic adults on about 50 scenarios similar to the jellyfish example.
”””

This sounds like a small sample to me.

I also wonder how they partitioned the sample? If they sorted individuals on behaviour typically seen as ”autistic”, and then tested if the cohort had a higher likelihood of the property they partitioned on, then thet have proven nothing.

Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?

The “jellyfish” study (2011) was influential in this, as it concluded that autistic people lacked Theory of Mind & capacity for moral reasoning.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-01-autistic-mind.html

In the fictional scenario given to participants, Sally tells a friend it’s safe to swim with jellyfish. She believes they’re harmless. The friend is stung and dies.

️

#Autism #Empathy #Neurodiversity #Psychology #TheoryofMind #ActuallyAutistic

@KatyElphinstone

Allistics never seem to notice that the less detail they have in front of them, the more assumptions they make. They mentally add information into scenarios & then extrapolate based on what they assumed but did not specify.

@multipass @KatyElphinstone and the second sentence is vague. Was Janet making statements about a subject she knew nothing about? Or did she “know” for certain that jellyfish are harmless? Did someone lie to Janet? Did Janet have a past experience with some hypothetical stingerless jellyfish?

@CynAq @KatyElphinstone 'It depends' is the answer to a *lot* of questions.

Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).

And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.

Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.

I really enjoy analyzing things!

End of thread. 🧵

@jordgubben

So it's a form of selection bias I suppose. If that were the case, yes.

@KatyElphinstone I think I'd like to take it even a bit further and claim they are begging the question.

Assuming that there's a correct and not-correct mode of experience, then constructing at test that verifies the not-correct mode users as not operating "correctly". This is a text book example of a circular argument.

Use of words like "non-autistic" rather than "allistic" kind of gives this away, although arguably that could also be due to the article being a bit old.

@KatyElphinstone I think I'd like to take it even a bit further and claim they are begging the question.

Assuming that there's a correct and not-correct mode of experience, then constructing at test that verifies the not-correct mode users as not operating "correctly". This is a text book example of a circular argument.

Use of words like "non-autistic" rather than "allistic" kind of gives this away, although arguably that could also be due to the article being a bit old.

@KatyElphinstone The whole "lack of #empathy" idea builds on the #TheoryOfMind idea, which is rotten to the core. The basic paper applying it to #autistics (Baron-Cohen, Leslie, and Frith 1985) got the idea from an irredeemably flawed paper that had applied it to CHIMPANZEES[!] (Premack and Woodruff 1978). Both papers are hopelessly confused about what it even MEANS to say that a person — or an animal — has, or does not have, a "theory of mind". Both of these groups of researchers should have gotten clear on their concepts BEFORE conducting any experiments — and since they didn’t, both papers should have been refused publication.

@autistics