Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python.

@cwebber

I have my fifth graders write a program that will convert decimal numbers to Roman numerals. They know that there are already webpages that do this with smart trim programs that always give the right answer. They know they could ask an LLM and probably get the right answers most of the time.

They still want to solve the puzzle.

"It works! It works!"

I've love hearing that when I'm teaching.

@wordshaper @cwebber What I will say is that continuing to maintain and develop the underlying skills is still important. People who let their writing, coding, whatever skills atrophy are likely doing themselves a disservice.

edit: It varies by thing. For example: I never wanted to be good at computer, I wanted to play Wing Commander. I'm happy to let the LLM make little one-off scripts and tools now. I offload a lot for longform nonfiction, but I run the show 90% with music and fiction writing.

It makes sense to me, then, that someone who never cared as much about code as what they could do with it is happy to offload coding to devote more brain power to the part that's fun for them.

Steve Klabnik also had an interview on lobste.rs. There's a lot in it! It's a cool read! https://alexalejandre.com/programming/steve-klabnik-interview/

And then it gets to the AI part and he's just like "oh I don't write code anymore".

And notably Steve Klabnik has a lot to say about code, but it's *all in the past*.

Lots of brilliant people are becoming non-practitioners.

@cwebber
My HR guy thinks I'm a fool for criticizing the new "vibe coding bootcamp," and that this is the new reality that he needs to train folks for.
Nope nope nopetty nope.

@cwebber

It took me a long time to find a programing puzzle at the right level for 5th grade. Many things that might seem simple are too complex.

Making the Roman numeral converter they learn about indexes and lists, place value, and modular division.

It's really math, and logic. Working out how to present the question made *me* smarter since I had to think about the problem in a new way that avoided aspects of coding that were ... technical without really teaching much.

Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju

Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?

@futurebird

@cwebber

I use roman numerals as a startup kata in coding dojos, like a workshop to practice pair programming and writing tests and talk about programming practices.

https://codingdojo.org/kata/RomanNumerals/

@cwebber

I don't really get how one could use an LLM to help with coding without reading the code?

That's baffling. But I don't make apps I teach young people to think and solve problems. So maybe that's why I don't get it.

Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju

Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?

Feeling FOMO about AI? Well here's my advice!

Stay on top of what's happening. Which doesn't really require *using* the tools. Just see what people are doing.

Whether or not you do use it, stay a practitioner. And don't fall for the FOMO.

Your career won't end because you're not making the choice to use AI. (If your employer makes you use it, that's another thing.)

If you use AI, use it for "summarize and explore" tasks. DO NOT use it for *generate* tasks. That's a different thing.

If you want to differentiate yourself, *learning skills* is the differentiation space right now.

These things are easy to pick up. You can do it whenever. But keep learning.

If you see generated examples, don't paste or accept them. Type them in by hand! The hands on imperative: actually trying things congeals core ideas.

And if it doesn't help your career... well, your consolation prize is: you'll stay interesting.

@faassen @cwebber

A solution that 5th graders can complete

elegant? eh

print("Roman Numerals")

ones = ["","I","II", "III", "IV", "V","VI", "VII", "VIII", "IX"]
tens = ["", "X", "XX","XXX", "XL", "L", "LX", "LXX", "LXXX", "XC"]
hundreds = ["", "C", "CC", "CCC", "CD", "D", "DC", "DCC", "DCC", "CM"]
thousands = ["", "M", "MM", "MMM"]

n = input("enter a number 1 to 3999")
n=int(n)

m=n//1000
n=n-m*1000

h=n//100
n=n-h*100

t=n//10
n=n-t*10

print(thousands[m]+hundreds[h]+tens[t]+ones[n])

Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju

Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?

@cwebber What's telling, I think, is that all these people go on about how much they're doing and how great AI is to help them build more *but there's no actual demonstrable stuff being done.* I mean, if AI was some kind of Nx multiplier you'd think we'd be getting N times more actual functionality out of software but mostly it seems like the N multiplier only applies to blog posts about how AI multiplies their programming.

@cwebber identity, community, established relationships, safety of a known space?

(I don't know this individual, answering in the general sense)

@cwebber What's telling, I think, is that all these people go on about how much they're doing and how great AI is to help them build more *but there's no actual demonstrable stuff being done.* I mean, if AI was some kind of Nx multiplier you'd think we'd be getting N times more actual functionality out of software but mostly it seems like the N multiplier only applies to blog posts about how AI multiplies their programming.

Armin was once one of the most prolific programmers in Python. Says he never writes code anymore. Seeing more and more people like him write stuff like this on what are supposedly computer programming forums. https://lobste.rs/s/qmjejh/ai_is_slowly_munching_away_my_passion#c_jcgdju

Notably, once a person crosses this threshold, I see them still hang out on programming forums, but they never talk about any of the puzzles of programming anymore. Only about running agents. Which feels strange and sad. Why hang out on the forums at all then?

@futurebird

@cwebber

Very nice! I have watched experienced devs have to work at this too. They often lean towards overcomplicating things because they want to avoid hardcoding the patterns. But this then leads to a nice little discussion.

@cwebber Also, don't use it for "summarize" because it literally can't do that.

https://ea.rna.nl/2024/05/27/when-chatgpt-summarises-it-actually-does-nothing-of-the-kind/