Web developers: we are going to go out of our way to hide the scrollbars!
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@rysiek That's the secret, Cap. I only implement infinite scrolling.
@johnduggins "hail Hydra"?
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@rysiek Honestly I just don’t like scrollbars and turn them off, but, like, I’m the user, I should be able to turn them off. Or on. Webdev (and Desktop Dev, because we’ve somehow regressed to be less capable than Windows 3.1) need to be hit with the User Sovereignty Stick.
@lightspill @rysiek Computers Commandments number one: Thou shalt not act as if thou knoweth better than thy user what thy user wants.
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@ailurocrat @dalias @libewa partially, yes. But there were scores of web developers that should have known better, and yet helped implement this.
This is also on them.
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@maypop_neocities @korgie @lightspill
Function over style.
@rysiek @korgie @lightspill nah it just is a good style too. "modern" design is ugly.
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@rysiek @korgie @lightspill nah it just is a good style too. "modern" design is ugly.
@maypop_neocities @korgie @lightspill oh I am with you. Still, if I have to choose...
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Web developers: we are going to go out of our way to hide the scrollbars!
Users: but that makes it difficult to know how much of the text is left to read!
Web developers: don't worry, we'll add a non-standard UI element that signals this in some non-obvious, weird way!
@rysiek Old Web Developers: "where the f**k is the scroll bar??"
Browser developers: "What's your user agent?"
OWD: "Why does that matter? Wait... What did you do?"
BD: "We made it better! And it's all rounded now."
OWD: "Give me back the same UI that I'm developing on! Let me control how it renders. Why are you doing this to us?"
BD: "Here, now there's AI in there, too."
OWD: "..."
BD: "You're welcome."
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@dalias @rysiek
Well, there are legitimate reasons to develop applications running in the browser engine (portability as the main one).
The problem is article sites pushing advertisement bullshit into everything, and you can‘t really do that if the user just enables Reader Mode. So, make your document tree useless for everything but proprietary CSS and JS.
A web dev should just be someone developing applications for the browser engines, like iOS devs for iPhone apps.@libewa@chaos.social @dalias@hachyderm.io @rysiek@mstdn.social Java and Common Lisp are two better examples of how to solve the portability problem.
(Portable bytecode and runs-from-source, respectively, for native programs. Of course Common Lisp (and Interlisp) also did bytecode before Java but nevermind that, bytecode is old.)
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@dalias@hachyderm.io @libewa@chaos.social @rysiek@mstdn.social It can even be a static HTML document in an
<iframe>with a user-customizable (with a request with a form field) refresh timer enabled by <meta> tags. -
@lightspill @rysiek We should also be able to keep them always visible, and control the thickness.
I totally get why people don't like the look of the scrollbars of the 90s, but that should be an option for those who need that (either due to vision issues, trouble using the newer style, or just personal preference)
@korgie @lightspill @rysiek Windows has an accessibility setting to always show scrollbars, and the Registry setting for their thickness is still evaluated, even if the UI is gone.
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@rysiek Honestly I just don’t like scrollbars and turn them off, but, like, I’m the user, I should be able to turn them off. Or on. Webdev (and Desktop Dev, because we’ve somehow regressed to be less capable than Windows 3.1) need to be hit with the User Sovereignty Stick.
@lightspill @rysiek hot take: I think CSS that does anything other than organizing the elements on a page simply shouldn't work
️ If we're being generous, I guess web devs can have background images/colors and text colors, but only after they've proven that they can be responsible -
@lightspill @rysiek hot take: I think CSS that does anything other than organizing the elements on a page simply shouldn't work
️ If we're being generous, I guess web devs can have background images/colors and text colors, but only after they've proven that they can be responsible@eletious @lightspill I don't think I agree. I love beautifully designed pages, and I love the genuinely useful functionality CSS can bring to a website without even a line of JS.
But the way webdevs are abusing CSS *and* JS to make websites effectively unusable is revolting.
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Web developers: we are going to go out of our way to hide the scrollbars!
Users: but that makes it difficult to know how much of the text is left to read!
Web developers: don't worry, we'll add a non-standard UI element that signals this in some non-obvious, weird way!
@rysiek yeah, pretty much https://aartaka.me/scrollbar.html
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