Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
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Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).
And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.
Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.
I really enjoy analyzing things!
End of thread. 🧵
@KatyElphinstone Id heard this theory, but I hadn’t heard of the jellyfish test, and now I’m more angry than before about it
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Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).
And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.
Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.
I really enjoy analyzing things!
End of thread. 🧵
@KatyElphinstone (context - I'm NT but my three children are AuDHD as is their mother)
I totally get why people sometimes think Autistic empathy isn't there - but in my experience it is nearly always the logic (& the amount of times I've had to explain to A. [childrens mother] how NT people are 'thinking' or rather the "script" they are operating from)
As you say there is a lot of normative assumption in the question - why isn't the person who told Janet the jellyfish are harmless to blame?
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@KatyElphinstone Id heard this theory, but I hadn’t heard of the jellyfish test, and now I’m more angry than before about it
@stufromoz @KatyElphinstone I feel sure this study is deeply flawed. The whole scenario with the jellyfish is ridiculous!
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@KatyElphinstone (context - I'm NT but my three children are AuDHD as is their mother)
I totally get why people sometimes think Autistic empathy isn't there - but in my experience it is nearly always the logic (& the amount of times I've had to explain to A. [childrens mother] how NT people are 'thinking' or rather the "script" they are operating from)
As you say there is a lot of normative assumption in the question - why isn't the person who told Janet the jellyfish are harmless to blame?
@KatyElphinstone I kind of didn't express myself in that really - too many context/caveat things
basically autistic brains are spending a load of their time thinking "What does this person want from me here" AND non autistic people are thinking "I understand this situation completely" despite having not really thought about it
there will always be a mismatch
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@KatyElphinstone (context - I'm NT but my three children are AuDHD as is their mother)
I totally get why people sometimes think Autistic empathy isn't there - but in my experience it is nearly always the logic (& the amount of times I've had to explain to A. [childrens mother] how NT people are 'thinking' or rather the "script" they are operating from)
As you say there is a lot of normative assumption in the question - why isn't the person who told Janet the jellyfish are harmless to blame?
Ooh that is such a good point! I love your idea about the person who told Janet being to blame.
It starts to show up how our system of blame and exoneration is rather a witch hunt, and not very logical
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@KatyElphinstone
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Thing is, when I as an Autistic blame someone or something, I’m just identifying the causal chain of events - there’s nothing “moral,” about it.
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It’s a “moral,” matter when you’re planning to punish who or whatever caused the problem. As a lifelong God’s fool sort of Autistic, that isn’t automatic, in fact I try to never punish anyone for anything.
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So “blame,” is a word that means different things to different neurotypes, making these tests faulty from the start. We’re suppose to lack empathy because for them, blaming Sally means hurting Sally, which it doesn’t for me.
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Worse, their version includes punishment, and they think that’s Human Nature and true for everyone so they don’t even try to compensate for that confound.
🤨
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#ND #ActuallyAutistic #Autism @autistics@KatyElphinstone @autistics
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the number of likes the above toot got is extremely encouraging for me, thank you all so much.
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This bit of text is from just a few toots down (now gone), but I want to make a thread:
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Waaaiit a minute - this study could be interpreted exactly that way, couldn’t it? That the Autistics don’t assume the right to punish whoever was wrong, so they don’t see the problem with naming names - we Autistics lack empathy - for a cruelty we were never going to apply in the first place. It’s their cruelty to punish Sally, but our “lack of empathy,” to not even dream of it?
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So this study does indeed suggest that Autistics don’t automatically punish, or think of it.
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For my part, I knew punishment is an Allistic trait, but this is the first bit of “normal science,” that I can interpret as saying it’s not an Autistic trait. That’s sort of huge!
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Back live:
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I’m curious, were the Autistics never going to punish Sally, or is it just a separate issue? Did we think of it as we read the example, that she would be sent to prison or something before we answered?
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Or did the fact that they never said that in the setup, that it was “understood,” make it not part of the question for you, did we read it literally, this and nothing else?
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I’m so happy for this human based test of theirs, you’d never get this far with the puppet one.
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If anyone has anything, I’d love to hear it.
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#ND #ActuallyAutistic #Autism -
Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).
And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.
Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.
I really enjoy analyzing things!
End of thread. 🧵
@KatyElphinstone there is also (I suspect) a lot of personal history in this. I would suggest there are very few autistics who haven’t been blamed for things which they didn’t know that “should have been obvious”
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@KatyElphinstone @autistics
.
the number of likes the above toot got is extremely encouraging for me, thank you all so much.
.
This bit of text is from just a few toots down (now gone), but I want to make a thread:
.
Waaaiit a minute - this study could be interpreted exactly that way, couldn’t it? That the Autistics don’t assume the right to punish whoever was wrong, so they don’t see the problem with naming names - we Autistics lack empathy - for a cruelty we were never going to apply in the first place. It’s their cruelty to punish Sally, but our “lack of empathy,” to not even dream of it?
.
So this study does indeed suggest that Autistics don’t automatically punish, or think of it.
.
For my part, I knew punishment is an Allistic trait, but this is the first bit of “normal science,” that I can interpret as saying it’s not an Autistic trait. That’s sort of huge!
.
Back live:
.
I’m curious, were the Autistics never going to punish Sally, or is it just a separate issue? Did we think of it as we read the example, that she would be sent to prison or something before we answered?
.
Or did the fact that they never said that in the setup, that it was “understood,” make it not part of the question for you, did we read it literally, this and nothing else?
.
I’m so happy for this human based test of theirs, you’d never get this far with the puppet one.
.
If anyone has anything, I’d love to hear it.
.
/2
.
#ND #ActuallyAutistic #Autism -
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@KatyElphinstone @autistics
.
the number of likes the above toot got is extremely encouraging for me, thank you all so much.
.
This bit of text is from just a few toots down (now gone), but I want to make a thread:
.
Waaaiit a minute - this study could be interpreted exactly that way, couldn’t it? That the Autistics don’t assume the right to punish whoever was wrong, so they don’t see the problem with naming names - we Autistics lack empathy - for a cruelty we were never going to apply in the first place. It’s their cruelty to punish Sally, but our “lack of empathy,” to not even dream of it?
.
So this study does indeed suggest that Autistics don’t automatically punish, or think of it.
.
For my part, I knew punishment is an Allistic trait, but this is the first bit of “normal science,” that I can interpret as saying it’s not an Autistic trait. That’s sort of huge!
.
Back live:
.
I’m curious, were the Autistics never going to punish Sally, or is it just a separate issue? Did we think of it as we read the example, that she would be sent to prison or something before we answered?
.
Or did the fact that they never said that in the setup, that it was “understood,” make it not part of the question for you, did we read it literally, this and nothing else?
.
I’m so happy for this human based test of theirs, you’d never get this far with the puppet one.
.
If anyone has anything, I’d love to hear it.
.
/2
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#ND #ActuallyAutistic #Autism@punishmenthurts @KatyElphinstone @autistics so, you also think not being inclined to punish can be an autistic trait? I raised my kid without punishments at all: we had a system of agreements which were functioning like ‘I will do my part if you do yours’, and I always tried to teach about possible consequences of any actions (or lack of those) - so my kid knows that crossing a street on red light is bad not because I or some police will punish them, but because a car can hit them, and so on. And at work, when I work as a manager(I always try to avoid that, but at any place I stay long enough I got pushed to managing positions) I don’t punish anyone - when there is a fail, I try to define what actions/decisions lead to that fail and try to organize future processes to avoid possible scenarios in future. The thing is, I don’t believe in punishments and think they do more harm than good: a person that is afraid of a punishment pays more attention to the possible policer/executor than to the problem itself and gets more likely involved, after which spends more time and effort trying to hide from the punishment than to fix the consequences of the issue.
