Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
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Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
The “jellyfish” study (2011) was influential in this, as it concluded that autistic people lacked Theory of Mind & capacity for moral reasoning.
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-01-autistic-mind.html
In the fictional scenario given to participants, Sally tells a friend it’s safe to swim with jellyfish. She believes they’re harmless. The friend is stung and dies.
️ #Autism #Empathy #Neurodiversity #Psychology #TheoryofMind #ActuallyAutistic
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Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
The “jellyfish” study (2011) was influential in this, as it concluded that autistic people lacked Theory of Mind & capacity for moral reasoning.
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-01-autistic-mind.html
In the fictional scenario given to participants, Sally tells a friend it’s safe to swim with jellyfish. She believes they’re harmless. The friend is stung and dies.
️ #Autism #Empathy #Neurodiversity #Psychology #TheoryofMind #ActuallyAutistic
Autistic participants were more likely than non-autistic participants to say Sally was to blame, despite her good intentions.
This was interpreted as evidence of faulty moral reasoning or reduced empathy.
But that conclusion rests on three errors of logic built into the task itself, and not on evidence that autistic people care less about others.
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Autistic participants were more likely than non-autistic participants to say Sally was to blame, despite her good intentions.
This was interpreted as evidence of faulty moral reasoning or reduced empathy.
But that conclusion rests on three errors of logic built into the task itself, and not on evidence that autistic people care less about others.
️Error 1) Presupposition / Loaded framing. The task assumes that when harm occurs, someone usually gets blamed. That assumption isn't tested & is built into the question.
Error 2) False dichotomy. Moral evaluation is reduced to blame vs no blame, leaving no room for partial, shared, or non-punitive responsibility.
Error 3) Category error. Conflation of blame and responsibility. Responsibility for outcomes is treated as identical to moral condemnation, collapsing two very different concepts.
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Error 1) Presupposition / Loaded framing. The task assumes that when harm occurs, someone usually gets blamed. That assumption isn't tested & is built into the question.
Error 2) False dichotomy. Moral evaluation is reduced to blame vs no blame, leaving no room for partial, shared, or non-punitive responsibility.
Error 3) Category error. Conflation of blame and responsibility. Responsibility for outcomes is treated as identical to moral condemnation, collapsing two very different concepts.
️Within this frame, prioritizing outcomes over intentions is coded as a moral error...
A lack of understanding about the situation and about other people.
Even though, for the person who’s now dead, intentions make very little difference, while the outcome has been quite important to them.
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Within this frame, prioritizing outcomes over intentions is coded as a moral error...
A lack of understanding about the situation and about other people.
Even though, for the person who’s now dead, intentions make very little difference, while the outcome has been quite important to them.
️I’ve noticed that being innocent of knowledge is a good defense for many crimes in our society.
Those with the most power to change things seem to often be the most innocent of knowledge.
While people who are marginalized, discriminated against, and who don’t have much in the way of resources, influence, or free time...
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I’ve noticed that being innocent of knowledge is a good defense for many crimes in our society.
Those with the most power to change things seem to often be the most innocent of knowledge.
While people who are marginalized, discriminated against, and who don’t have much in the way of resources, influence, or free time...
️...are tasked with the enormous and near-impossible job of ‘educating them’ (and blamed for failing when they don’t manage to).
But, sadly, the privileged ones are selectively deaf or you didn’t use the right tone or… or… well, I think you get the gist.
️ #EpistemicInjustice #Racism #BlackLivesMatter #Patriarchy #GenderEquality #TransLivesMatter #LGBTQ+
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...are tasked with the enormous and near-impossible job of ‘educating them’ (and blamed for failing when they don’t manage to).
But, sadly, the privileged ones are selectively deaf or you didn’t use the right tone or… or… well, I think you get the gist.
️ #EpistemicInjustice #Racism #BlackLivesMatter #Patriarchy #GenderEquality #TransLivesMatter #LGBTQ+
Here’s an alternative take.
(Note: These are just my thoughts, I’m very open to discussion and other suggestions!)It may be – though we can’t know this, since participants weren’t asked – that autistic people in the study didn’t lack anything, but rather tended to reason in logical terms.
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Here’s an alternative take.
(Note: These are just my thoughts, I’m very open to discussion and other suggestions!)It may be – though we can’t know this, since participants weren’t asked – that autistic people in the study didn’t lack anything, but rather tended to reason in logical terms.
️This would mean:
- responsibility should be proportional to agency, influence, and ability to change outcomes (this would be not just logical but also extremely useful),
- individual / exclusive moral condemnation or punishment is not required in all situations where harm occurs,
- responsibility to take appropriate action is not the same thing as blame, and conflating the two is an error.
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This would mean:
- responsibility should be proportional to agency, influence, and ability to change outcomes (this would be not just logical but also extremely useful),
- individual / exclusive moral condemnation or punishment is not required in all situations where harm occurs,
- responsibility to take appropriate action is not the same thing as blame, and conflating the two is an error.
️Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).
And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.
Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.
I really enjoy analyzing things!
End of thread. 🧵
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Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).
And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.
Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.
I really enjoy analyzing things!
End of thread. 🧵
@KatyElphinstone from my point of view, you're 100% correct in your take. They leave out a lot of information because they want to isolate the issue, but they forget that they need to do so in a way that doesn't make the test overly vague. It would have been simply resolved by defining 'blame' or by explicitly stating that punishment is part of assigning blame here.
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Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).
And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.
Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.
I really enjoy analyzing things!
End of thread. 🧵
Thank you for the thread im still processing all of it as it seems to ask some valid questions of responsibility, and collaboration of all of us I guess ?
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@KatyElphinstone from my point of view, you're 100% correct in your take. They leave out a lot of information because they want to isolate the issue, but they forget that they need to do so in a way that doesn't make the test overly vague. It would have been simply resolved by defining 'blame' or by explicitly stating that punishment is part of assigning blame here.
Yes, they could have designed the study with those things in mind - and should have, in my view. I've a feeling it would have been a rather different study if it had less simplicity but more clarity around the foundation concepts.
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Thank you for the thread im still processing all of it as it seems to ask some valid questions of responsibility, and collaboration of all of us I guess ?
Yes, exactly that 🥰
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Yes, they could have designed the study with those things in mind - and should have, in my view. I've a feeling it would have been a rather different study if it had less simplicity but more clarity around the foundation concepts.
@KatyElphinstone I'm not autistic, but I would have found it very difficult to answer the question too. I would probably have leaned to not wanting to assign blame because I dislike the way our society handles guilt and punishment, but that's not what they asked either. So again; bad test.
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@KatyElphinstone I'm not autistic, but I would have found it very difficult to answer the question too. I would probably have leaned to not wanting to assign blame because I dislike the way our society handles guilt and punishment, but that's not what they asked either. So again; bad test.
exactly, right? Thanks for answering like this, you've validated my reality
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@KatyElphinstone I'm not autistic, but I would have found it very difficult to answer the question too. I would probably have leaned to not wanting to assign blame because I dislike the way our society handles guilt and punishment, but that's not what they asked either. So again; bad test.
@KatyElphinstone also, sorry for forgetting to boost. I reacted and then forgot. Stupid ADHD.
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exactly, right? Thanks for answering like this, you've validated my reality
@KatyElphinstone oh, you're very welcome. I find your posts often very well thought through, so kudos.
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Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).
And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.
Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.
I really enjoy analyzing things!
End of thread. 🧵
@KatyElphinstone your analysis of the situation is spot on I think. I really vibe with the blame vs responsibility distinction. Sally is inherently responsible having decided to make her opinion known which influenced her friend’s action. The friend is also responsible for her own actions. It wouldn’t even occur to me to look for blame in a situation like this unless I was forced to.
Before I read the thread, with only the information in the first two posts, my impression of this test was that it trivializes a fairly complex moral conundrum.
I feel this is the case for a lot of assessment type studies that have hypothetical scenarios and questionnaires like this. The questions always leave enormous elephants in the room, begging the reply “it depends”.
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Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).
And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.
Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.
I really enjoy analyzing things!
End of thread. 🧵
@KatyElphinstone i think the only differences i would have with you are semantic. in fact the whole problem seems to be one of semantics: what does "blame" mean?
Yes, Janet is "to blame"; her advice directly lead to a death. That doesn't mean that she should be punished! that's a whole other question!
i think the questioners are failing to recognise that "blame" has a variety of different meanings here — as many autists would have happilly pointed out to them…
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@KatyElphinstone also, sorry for forgetting to boost. I reacted and then forgot. Stupid ADHD.
Haha no worries and thanks
