Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
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@KatyElphinstone@mas.to There is something to the blame vs responsibility view. The question was put to "high functioning" autistics, meaning that those were pretty good at masking, and anticipating the social discourse. The general experience and script is, the victim will be blamed .
That's how we get through life, by correctly anticipating what realistic reactions will be. From my experience, NT people react pretty badly when I apply my masking prediction scripts to hypothetical, isolated scenarios, because they think that society isn't like that. And suddenly we're painted "deficient", because our experience based scripting reflects a pretty awful picture of society instead of the lip service expected in hypothetical, artificial scenarios.@thatfrisiangirlish @KatyElphinstone Depressingly true. People think I'm gloomy or misanthropic because I paint what I think are accurate, dispassionate pictures of folks' behaviour.
And yet, I somehow still seem to be more (cautiously) optimistic in my interactions with strangers than lots of NT people where preconception seems to shape reality.
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@KatyElphinstone
This is a worthless scenario and false conclusion.Arrogant idiots. What sort of peer review was there?
@raymaccarthy @KatyElphinstone
Don't blame the paper authors. They likely don't have a theory of mind.
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@KatyElphinstone IMO the book where Sally read about it is to blame. But then again I like splitting hairs
@farah @KatyElphinstone
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the google AI killed them, my thought too. We wouldn’t blame the person who actually looked it up before they answered! -
Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
The “jellyfish” study (2011) was influential in this, as it concluded that autistic people lacked Theory of Mind & capacity for moral reasoning.
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-01-autistic-mind.html
In the fictional scenario given to participants, Sally tells a friend it’s safe to swim with jellyfish. She believes they’re harmless. The friend is stung and dies.
️ #Autism #Empathy #Neurodiversity #Psychology #TheoryofMind #ActuallyAutistic
@KatyElphinstone I have always resented hypothetical questions like that and felt the urge to invent scenarios consistent with the given facts that go in both directions. Perhaps relatedly, I've wanted to write fiction since I was a child....
Scenario 1: Sally has just taken a course on ocean swimming safety, but slacked off and cheated to pass the final.
Scenario 2: Sally has an abusive parent who has actively deceived Sally about what is and is not safe because they wish her harm.
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Autistic people, after all, are known for preferring logic (I certainly do).
And we’re also known for thinking outside the box – meaning that if we’re forced to make false decisions based on faulty assumptions, then we are quite likely to make the ‘wrong’ choice.
Interested to hear others’ thoughts on this! And I’ll be looking for another influential study to look closely at.
I really enjoy analyzing things!
End of thread. 🧵
@KatyElphinstone
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Thing is, when I as an Autistic blame someone or something, I’m just identifying the causal chain of events - there’s nothing “moral,” about it.
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It’s a “moral,” matter when you’re planning to punish who or whatever caused the problem. As a lifelong God’s fool sort of Autistic, that isn’t automatic, in fact I try to never punish anyone for anything.
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So “blame,” is a word that means different things to different neurotypes, making these tests faulty from the start. We’re suppose to lack empathy because for them, blaming Sally means hurting Sally, which it doesn’t for me.
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Worse, their version includes punishment, and they think that’s Human Nature and true for everyone so they don’t even try to compensate for that confound.
🤨
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#ND #ActuallyAutistic #Autism @autistics -
what kind of sociopath considers empathy for the dead a sign of disability?
we are dealing with the limited information we are given. we could speculate outside these parameters but that is most likely not reflected in the answers to choose.
it’s almost as if the test was created to prove cultural assumptions that say empathy for those we kill with our willful ignorance is a disability.
@blogdiva @KatyElphinstone the kind who’s concerned more about their own potential culpability than the fact that people are dead.
We could be equally callous and assert that neurotypicals are more likely not to blame Sally for the death of her friend because they identify more with the alive person and their self-preservation compels them to deny any responsibility.
These kinds of studies always end up showing how effed up neurotypical tendencies are.
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Here’s an alternative take.
(Note: These are just my thoughts, I’m very open to discussion and other suggestions!)It may be – though we can’t know this, since participants weren’t asked – that autistic people in the study didn’t lack anything, but rather tended to reason in logical terms.
️@KatyElphinstone there's another angle too: you might consider it a breach of trust to say it was safe when they didn't know, and didn't try to find out. "blame" wouldn't even come into it, but if that's the only thing you're asked....
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Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
The “jellyfish” study (2011) was influential in this, as it concluded that autistic people lacked Theory of Mind & capacity for moral reasoning.
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-01-autistic-mind.html
In the fictional scenario given to participants, Sally tells a friend it’s safe to swim with jellyfish. She believes they’re harmless. The friend is stung and dies.
️ #Autism #Empathy #Neurodiversity #Psychology #TheoryofMind #ActuallyAutistic
@KatyElphinstone
Wow, that's a dumb study. "Are people responsible for accidental harm?" is not an easy ethical problem, dipshits.Also, 26 total participants isn't a serious study; it's a passing grade at the undergrad level, at best.
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Autistic participants were more likely than non-autistic participants to say Sally was to blame, despite her good intentions.
This was interpreted as evidence of faulty moral reasoning or reduced empathy.
But that conclusion rests on three errors of logic built into the task itself, and not on evidence that autistic people care less about others.
️@KatyElphinstone she logically is responsible for her friends death because jellyfish are deadly and this is well known
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@KatyElphinstone she logically is responsible for her friends death because jellyfish are deadly and this is well known
@KatyElphinstone like, I knew that as a kid
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@KatyElphinstone like, I knew that as a kid
@KatyElphinstone sally is unintelligent
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Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
The “jellyfish” study (2011) was influential in this, as it concluded that autistic people lacked Theory of Mind & capacity for moral reasoning.
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-01-autistic-mind.html
In the fictional scenario given to participants, Sally tells a friend it’s safe to swim with jellyfish. She believes they’re harmless. The friend is stung and dies.
️ #Autism #Empathy #Neurodiversity #Psychology #TheoryofMind #ActuallyAutistic
@KatyElphinstone
In my book, both girls share blame for taking on trust a statement at odds with general knowledge of jellyfish (the fact that the question was asked indicates that the possibility of danger was recognised). The originator of the ‘it’s safe’ information also takes a big share of the blame, but Sally gets extra blame for misjudging the trustworthiness of her informant.
In the real world, blame is rarely completely binary. -
Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
The “jellyfish” study (2011) was influential in this, as it concluded that autistic people lacked Theory of Mind & capacity for moral reasoning.
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-01-autistic-mind.html
In the fictional scenario given to participants, Sally tells a friend it’s safe to swim with jellyfish. She believes they’re harmless. The friend is stung and dies.
️ #Autism #Empathy #Neurodiversity #Psychology #TheoryofMind #ActuallyAutistic
@KatyElphinstone@mas.to what a ridiculous study!
if sally read that it was safe to jump in front of a moving train, it's clearly her fault if she convinces janet that's safe
it's not this obvious that jellyfish can be deadly, but they have giant stingers ffs and it's common knowledge that getting stung by a jellyfish hurts. so i could definitely see assigning sally a portion of the blame even if she didn't intend for janet to be harmed -
I’ve noticed that being innocent of knowledge is a good defense for many crimes in our society.
Those with the most power to change things seem to often be the most innocent of knowledge.
While people who are marginalized, discriminated against, and who don’t have much in the way of resources, influence, or free time...
️@KatyElphinstone@mas.to Which is bizarre. Confidently making assertions one lacks the knowledge to say for sure (or without adequate explanation of one's knowledge and its limits) certainly is something one is to blame for.
Sure it's quite different from setting out to murder the other (for funsies, I guess) in the first place, but that was never the question.
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This would mean:
- responsibility should be proportional to agency, influence, and ability to change outcomes (this would be not just logical but also extremely useful),
- individual / exclusive moral condemnation or punishment is not required in all situations where harm occurs,
- responsibility to take appropriate action is not the same thing as blame, and conflating the two is an error.
️@KatyElphinstone > - individual / exclusive moral condemnation or punishment is not required in all situations where harm occurs,
Presumably if she actually liked that friend and truly thought (unjustifiedly) that it was safe, losing the friend is more than punishment enough. Rather, it is likely to be quite traumatic. -
Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
The “jellyfish” study (2011) was influential in this, as it concluded that autistic people lacked Theory of Mind & capacity for moral reasoning.
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-01-autistic-mind.html
In the fictional scenario given to participants, Sally tells a friend it’s safe to swim with jellyfish. She believes they’re harmless. The friend is stung and dies.
️ #Autism #Empathy #Neurodiversity #Psychology #TheoryofMind #ActuallyAutistic
There are a lot of people in the USA telling others that
- there's no climate crisis
- vaccines are dangerous
- immigrants are taking all the wealth
- greed is good
- …Causing a lot of serious harm, including death.
Yet most of them are not autistic. But do lack moral reasoning.
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@KatyElphinstone > - individual / exclusive moral condemnation or punishment is not required in all situations where harm occurs,
Presumably if she actually liked that friend and truly thought (unjustifiedly) that it was safe, losing the friend is more than punishment enough. Rather, it is likely to be quite traumatic.Goodness yes
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@thatfrisiangirlish @KatyElphinstone Depressingly true. People think I'm gloomy or misanthropic because I paint what I think are accurate, dispassionate pictures of folks' behaviour.
And yet, I somehow still seem to be more (cautiously) optimistic in my interactions with strangers than lots of NT people where preconception seems to shape reality.
@gra@hachyderm.io I mean, same? Just because I can model pretty well the general response of society, that doesn't mean I agree, endorse, and act according to that. Because that would be depressing as fuck. @KatyElphinstone@mas.to
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Have you wondered where the claim that autistic people lack empathy came from?
The “jellyfish” study (2011) was influential in this, as it concluded that autistic people lacked Theory of Mind & capacity for moral reasoning.
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2011-01-autistic-mind.html
In the fictional scenario given to participants, Sally tells a friend it’s safe to swim with jellyfish. She believes they’re harmless. The friend is stung and dies.
️ #Autism #Empathy #Neurodiversity #Psychology #TheoryofMind #ActuallyAutistic
In the fictional scenario given to participants, Sally tells a friend it’s safe to swim with jellyfish. She believes they’re harmless. The friend is stung and dies.
Without additional context, I am left to assume that Sally is in no way qualified to advise anyone on whether or not "it's safe". The correct thing for Sally to have told her friend that she could not offer any sort of authoritative assessment of the situation and her decision is whether her own.
Also, did the friend approach Sally and explicitly ask for her opinion or did Sally just blurt out "hey, it's safe to swim with jellyfish!" without being prompted? That would be an important thing to know.
Either way, Sally was wrong to tell her friend it's safe. She should be far more careful with her words.
Edit: "despite her good intentions". There is not enough information for the reader to infer that Sally's intentions are "good".
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@KatyElphinstone there's another angle too: you might consider it a breach of trust to say it was safe when they didn't know, and didn't try to find out. "blame" wouldn't even come into it, but if that's the only thing you're asked....
@sinvega@mas.to @KatyElphinstone@mas.to I started with a message lower in the thread. Once I read the context, my immediate reaction was to say, out loud, "wtf, she shouldn't be asserting things if she doesn't know"
Like yeah, I think she is responsible, because her lack of double checking is what led to the outcome. Does that mean I want something to be done? Hell no! At most this is a cautionary tale of why you should always know the edge of your knowledge, nothing more
