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  3. Age Verification isn't a technical problem to solve.

Age Verification isn't a technical problem to solve.

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masssurveillancageverificationprivacydemocracyhumanrights
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  • always tiredP always tired

    @divVerent @dalias@hachyderm.io

    The children will be confronted with so much if we don't solve issues with tech bros at the source.

    And soon enough everything will seem small compared to the climate catastrophe, which those tech bros have a big part in.

    always tiredP This user is from outside of this forum
    always tiredP This user is from outside of this forum
    always tired
    wrote last edited by
    #34

    @divVerent And first results from Australia are in. Guess what. A net negative for kids.

    It's not actually about kids in the first place.

    1 Reply Last reply
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    • AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
      AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
      Azarilhⓥ
      wrote last edited by
      #35

      @0x4d6165 The methods they use are terrible but it can be done safely, look at EU's proposed app which would make the government check your age, not random private companies. And the government would simply tell the website "yes" or "no", without any identifiable information. So the problem would not persist. It's also open source.

      Would you still be against that? If so, why?

      1 Reply Last reply
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      • AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
        AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
        Azarilhⓥ
        wrote last edited by
        #36

        @0x4d6165 It's open source.

        1 Reply Last reply
        0
        • AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
          AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
          Azarilhⓥ
          wrote last edited by
          #37

          @0x4d6165 It means people can check the code and see what it really does. It's supposed to simply give a yes or no, nothing else. Or do you think this is still corruptable?

          1 Reply Last reply
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          • AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
            AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
            Azarilhⓥ
            wrote last edited by
            #38

            @0x4d6165 Very insightful...

            1 Reply Last reply
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            • AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
              AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
              Azarilhⓥ
              wrote last edited by
              #39

              @0x4d6165 There already are digital ID systems like EU's proposal that are implemented by governments around the world. For instance, Sweden has it ( y'know, one of the most progressive countries in the world ), so does Denmark, Canada, etc. I don't see how they affected negatively anyone in particular.

              I don't see "basics of authoritarianism" anywhere in here like USA is doing, where they censor queerness and spread disinformation to control people.

              Jonathan Kamens 86 47J 1 Reply Last reply
              0
              • Em :official_verified:E Em :official_verified:

                Age Verification isn't a technical problem to solve. If you think that, you're missing the point.

                It's a social problem used by authoritarian governments as an excuse for population control and censorship.

                It's a fundamental attack on free speech and democracy.

                It must not be accommodated.
                It must be stopped.

                #MassSurveillance #AgeVerification #Privacy #Democracy #HumanRights

                CyC This user is from outside of this forum
                CyC This user is from outside of this forum
                Cy
                wrote last edited by
                #40
                How to convince people of this though? My mother thinks that it's good to keep the children safe and we're not important enough for any authoritarian government to notice us. And that anyone who likes pornograpy is sick in the head. I can tell her "Uh, no," but that doesn't really accomplish anything...
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                • AzarilhⓥA Azarilhⓥ

                  @Em0nM4stodon What do you think of age verification in bars before they give you the alcohol? Or age verification before they let you in a sex convention. /gen

                  Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                  Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                  Em :official_verified:
                  wrote last edited by
                  #41

                  @Azarilh Showing ID in person to another human is very different. It doesn't require to collect and keep a copy of it digitally, and therefore is an entirely different situation that isn't even comparable. It also doesn't gatekeep portals of information in the same way that digital age verification on the internet does.

                  AzarilhⓥA 1 Reply Last reply
                  0
                  • Em :official_verified:E Em :official_verified:

                    @Azarilh Showing ID in person to another human is very different. It doesn't require to collect and keep a copy of it digitally, and therefore is an entirely different situation that isn't even comparable. It also doesn't gatekeep portals of information in the same way that digital age verification on the internet does.

                    AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                    AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                    Azarilhⓥ
                    wrote last edited by
                    #42

                    @Em0nM4stodon What about an open source solution that doesn't collect anything, and it simply tells the website "yes" or "no"?

                    Em :official_verified:E 1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                      AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                      Azarilhⓥ
                      wrote last edited by
                      #43

                      @0x4d6165 Just look up "sweden digital id".

                      We have eID here in Italy too, but it's not used for much.

                      1 Reply Last reply
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                      • AzarilhⓥA Azarilhⓥ

                        @0x4d6165 There already are digital ID systems like EU's proposal that are implemented by governments around the world. For instance, Sweden has it ( y'know, one of the most progressive countries in the world ), so does Denmark, Canada, etc. I don't see how they affected negatively anyone in particular.

                        I don't see "basics of authoritarianism" anywhere in here like USA is doing, where they censor queerness and spread disinformation to control people.

                        Jonathan Kamens 86 47J This user is from outside of this forum
                        Jonathan Kamens 86 47J This user is from outside of this forum
                        Jonathan Kamens 86 47
                        wrote last edited by
                        #44

                        @Azarilh is right that there are age verification mechanisms that fully protect privacy and prevent sites requiring age verification from knowing the real-world identity of the user.
                        They can even be designed to prevent the authority providing the age verification from knowing what sites it's requested for.
                        More about this here: https://www.newamerica.org/oti/briefs/exploring-privacy-preserving-age-verification/
                        I'm not a fan of online age verification, but if governments are going to require it, we should be demanding that it be done this way.
                        @0x4d6165@transfem.social

                        1 Reply Last reply
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                        • Serf de WebS Serf de Web

                          @Em0nM4stodon
                          I agree. Besides using a VPN, are there ways to bollix up such a system?

                          Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                          Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                          Em :official_verified:
                          wrote last edited by
                          #45

                          @serfdeweb People need to contact their representatives and complain loudly about it.

                          These legislations need to be repealed and prevented.

                          The political class needs to hear that citizens reject surveillance firmly, and the focus should be instead on creating platforms that are less addictive, more privacy-respectful, and safer for everyone, including adults.

                          The time to fight is now.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          0
                          • Jonathan Kamens 86 47J This user is from outside of this forum
                            Jonathan Kamens 86 47J This user is from outside of this forum
                            Jonathan Kamens 86 47
                            wrote last edited by
                            #46

                            @0x4d6165 OK then. *plonk*

                            1 Reply Last reply
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                            • Em :official_verified:E Em :official_verified:

                              Age Verification isn't a technical problem to solve. If you think that, you're missing the point.

                              It's a social problem used by authoritarian governments as an excuse for population control and censorship.

                              It's a fundamental attack on free speech and democracy.

                              It must not be accommodated.
                              It must be stopped.

                              #MassSurveillance #AgeVerification #Privacy #Democracy #HumanRights

                              Ben ToddM This user is from outside of this forum
                              Ben ToddM This user is from outside of this forum
                              Ben Todd
                              wrote last edited by
                              #47

                              @Em0nM4stodon

                              It is all about surveillance. Protecting children from serious harm on the Internet involves stopped malicious adults accessing child services, not stopping children accessing adult services.

                              Em :official_verified:E 1 Reply Last reply
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                              • AzarilhⓥA Azarilhⓥ

                                @Em0nM4stodon What about an open source solution that doesn't collect anything, and it simply tells the website "yes" or "no"?

                                Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                                Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                                Em :official_verified:
                                wrote last edited by
                                #48

                                @Azarilh There would still be a need for this open-source app to collect "something" in order to answer this question. When I say it's not possible, I do not say this lightly. I have been researching this issue for a very long time.

                                AzarilhⓥA 2 Replies Last reply
                                0
                                • Ben ToddM Ben Todd

                                  @Em0nM4stodon

                                  It is all about surveillance. Protecting children from serious harm on the Internet involves stopped malicious adults accessing child services, not stopping children accessing adult services.

                                  Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Em :official_verified:
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #49

                                  @monkeyben

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  0
                                  • AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                                    AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Azarilhⓥ
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #50

                                    @0x4d6165 @jik

                                    I'd rather trust a senior IT engineer than someone that just shouts "authoritarianism".

                                    I understand your distrust, but you are blowing it out of proportion. It is possible to design an infrastructure that is safe. The only concern now is how will they use it, what will they block behind ID checks, and that is more concerning and rightfully so.

                                    But we can't outright ban ID checks either. I'd rather not have children get addicted to smoking at 10.

                                    AzarilhⓥA 1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • AzarilhⓥA Azarilhⓥ

                                      @0x4d6165 @jik

                                      I'd rather trust a senior IT engineer than someone that just shouts "authoritarianism".

                                      I understand your distrust, but you are blowing it out of proportion. It is possible to design an infrastructure that is safe. The only concern now is how will they use it, what will they block behind ID checks, and that is more concerning and rightfully so.

                                      But we can't outright ban ID checks either. I'd rather not have children get addicted to smoking at 10.

                                      AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                                      AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                                      Azarilhⓥ
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #51

                                      @0x4d6165 @jik

                                      And BTW, we already had ID checks for a very long time. The only difference with such infrastructure would be "safer".

                                      Countries blocking social media to children is a different problem altogether, and i disagree with it for the most part.

                                      Online shops can require your ID, so can video platforms like YouTube or CornHub. For official EU petitions, you need your eID to verify you are actually a EU citizen.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • Em :official_verified:E Em :official_verified:

                                        @Azarilh There would still be a need for this open-source app to collect "something" in order to answer this question. When I say it's not possible, I do not say this lightly. I have been researching this issue for a very long time.

                                        AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                                        AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Azarilhⓥ
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #52

                                        RE: https://federate.social/@jik/116115336623105287

                                        @Em0nM4stodon

                                        What about this person's response?

                                        https://mastodon.social/@jik@federate.social/116115336650467751

                                        Em :official_verified:E 1 Reply Last reply
                                        0
                                        • Em :official_verified:E Em :official_verified:

                                          @Azarilh There would still be a need for this open-source app to collect "something" in order to answer this question. When I say it's not possible, I do not say this lightly. I have been researching this issue for a very long time.

                                          AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                                          AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Azarilhⓥ
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #53

                                          @Em0nM4stodon I appreciate the genuine conversation, by the way. I understand it can be a touchy topic for some.

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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