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  3. Age Verification isn't a technical problem to solve.

Age Verification isn't a technical problem to solve.

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masssurveillancageverificationprivacydemocracyhumanrights
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  • Em :official_verified:E Em :official_verified:

    Age Verification isn't a technical problem to solve. If you think that, you're missing the point.

    It's a social problem used by authoritarian governments as an excuse for population control and censorship.

    It's a fundamental attack on free speech and democracy.

    It must not be accommodated.
    It must be stopped.

    #MassSurveillance #AgeVerification #Privacy #Democracy #HumanRights

    grøtlaus fiskegratengH This user is from outside of this forum
    grøtlaus fiskegratengH This user is from outside of this forum
    grøtlaus fiskegrateng
    wrote last edited by
    #30

    @Em0nM4stodon the first person project could solve a lot of these things in a privacy preserving way - but it is a hard technical, social problem to solve. http://firstperson.network/ - I think we need the trust layer of the internet - but in a way that also solves privacy.

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    • AzarilhⓥA Azarilhⓥ

      @0x4d6165 @Em0nM4stodon How is it bad faith? I am genuinely confused at why it's ok to have age checks in person but not online. The Internet might not be physical, but it's still real life with real people.

      AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
      AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
      Azarilhⓥ
      wrote last edited by
      #31

      @0x4d6165 @Em0nM4stodon I love when people block for having a genuine question, instead of having a productive conversation. /s
      So silly.

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      • divVerentD divVerent
        @Em0nM4stodon@infosec.exchange There are technical solutions without mass surveillance.

        But I am not optimistic enough to believe those will be demanded.

        Specifically because of the lack of surveillance, and the lack of monopoly protection for big tech.

        Pretty sure big tech lobbyists are making sure the worst approaches possible get put into law. Not because they are evil per se, but because it strengthens their monopolies.
        always tiredP This user is from outside of this forum
        always tiredP This user is from outside of this forum
        always tired
        wrote last edited by
        #32

        @divVerent @Em0nM4stodon

        You are missing the point.

        Gatekeeping access is also a problem. It's the end of free speech and free access to information and the freedom to associate.

        1 Reply Last reply
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        • divVerentD divVerent
          @dalias@hachyderm.io But that's not gonna happen.

          So next I at least don't want children to be confronted with this abuse.

          The absolute minimum demand for technical changes to the internet I have is getting Do-Not-Track back. When set, platforms still must operate to its full extent but not perform any user behavior analysis for purposes such as content recommendation or targeted advertisement (they still should be allowed to track for abuse prevention but they must take and disclosure measures that such data is not used for any other purpose, not even used as training data for future AI models).
          always tiredP This user is from outside of this forum
          always tiredP This user is from outside of this forum
          always tired
          wrote last edited by
          #33

          @divVerent @dalias@hachyderm.io

          The children will be confronted with so much if we don't solve issues with tech bros at the source.

          And soon enough everything will seem small compared to the climate catastrophe, which those tech bros have a big part in.

          always tiredP 1 Reply Last reply
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          • always tiredP always tired

            @divVerent @dalias@hachyderm.io

            The children will be confronted with so much if we don't solve issues with tech bros at the source.

            And soon enough everything will seem small compared to the climate catastrophe, which those tech bros have a big part in.

            always tiredP This user is from outside of this forum
            always tiredP This user is from outside of this forum
            always tired
            wrote last edited by
            #34

            @divVerent And first results from Australia are in. Guess what. A net negative for kids.

            It's not actually about kids in the first place.

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            • AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
              AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
              Azarilhⓥ
              wrote last edited by
              #35

              @0x4d6165 The methods they use are terrible but it can be done safely, look at EU's proposed app which would make the government check your age, not random private companies. And the government would simply tell the website "yes" or "no", without any identifiable information. So the problem would not persist. It's also open source.

              Would you still be against that? If so, why?

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              • AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                Azarilhⓥ
                wrote last edited by
                #36

                @0x4d6165 It's open source.

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                • AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                  AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                  Azarilhⓥ
                  wrote last edited by
                  #37

                  @0x4d6165 It means people can check the code and see what it really does. It's supposed to simply give a yes or no, nothing else. Or do you think this is still corruptable?

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                  • AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                    AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                    Azarilhⓥ
                    wrote last edited by
                    #38

                    @0x4d6165 Very insightful...

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                    • AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                      AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                      Azarilhⓥ
                      wrote last edited by
                      #39

                      @0x4d6165 There already are digital ID systems like EU's proposal that are implemented by governments around the world. For instance, Sweden has it ( y'know, one of the most progressive countries in the world ), so does Denmark, Canada, etc. I don't see how they affected negatively anyone in particular.

                      I don't see "basics of authoritarianism" anywhere in here like USA is doing, where they censor queerness and spread disinformation to control people.

                      Jonathan Kamens 86 47J 1 Reply Last reply
                      0
                      • Em :official_verified:E Em :official_verified:

                        Age Verification isn't a technical problem to solve. If you think that, you're missing the point.

                        It's a social problem used by authoritarian governments as an excuse for population control and censorship.

                        It's a fundamental attack on free speech and democracy.

                        It must not be accommodated.
                        It must be stopped.

                        #MassSurveillance #AgeVerification #Privacy #Democracy #HumanRights

                        CyC This user is from outside of this forum
                        CyC This user is from outside of this forum
                        Cy
                        wrote last edited by
                        #40
                        How to convince people of this though? My mother thinks that it's good to keep the children safe and we're not important enough for any authoritarian government to notice us. And that anyone who likes pornograpy is sick in the head. I can tell her "Uh, no," but that doesn't really accomplish anything...
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                        • AzarilhⓥA Azarilhⓥ

                          @Em0nM4stodon What do you think of age verification in bars before they give you the alcohol? Or age verification before they let you in a sex convention. /gen

                          Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                          Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                          Em :official_verified:
                          wrote last edited by
                          #41

                          @Azarilh Showing ID in person to another human is very different. It doesn't require to collect and keep a copy of it digitally, and therefore is an entirely different situation that isn't even comparable. It also doesn't gatekeep portals of information in the same way that digital age verification on the internet does.

                          AzarilhⓥA 1 Reply Last reply
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                          • Em :official_verified:E Em :official_verified:

                            @Azarilh Showing ID in person to another human is very different. It doesn't require to collect and keep a copy of it digitally, and therefore is an entirely different situation that isn't even comparable. It also doesn't gatekeep portals of information in the same way that digital age verification on the internet does.

                            AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                            AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                            Azarilhⓥ
                            wrote last edited by
                            #42

                            @Em0nM4stodon What about an open source solution that doesn't collect anything, and it simply tells the website "yes" or "no"?

                            Em :official_verified:E 1 Reply Last reply
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                            • AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                              AzarilhⓥA This user is from outside of this forum
                              Azarilhⓥ
                              wrote last edited by
                              #43

                              @0x4d6165 Just look up "sweden digital id".

                              We have eID here in Italy too, but it's not used for much.

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                              • AzarilhⓥA Azarilhⓥ

                                @0x4d6165 There already are digital ID systems like EU's proposal that are implemented by governments around the world. For instance, Sweden has it ( y'know, one of the most progressive countries in the world ), so does Denmark, Canada, etc. I don't see how they affected negatively anyone in particular.

                                I don't see "basics of authoritarianism" anywhere in here like USA is doing, where they censor queerness and spread disinformation to control people.

                                Jonathan Kamens 86 47J This user is from outside of this forum
                                Jonathan Kamens 86 47J This user is from outside of this forum
                                Jonathan Kamens 86 47
                                wrote last edited by
                                #44

                                @Azarilh is right that there are age verification mechanisms that fully protect privacy and prevent sites requiring age verification from knowing the real-world identity of the user.
                                They can even be designed to prevent the authority providing the age verification from knowing what sites it's requested for.
                                More about this here: https://www.newamerica.org/oti/briefs/exploring-privacy-preserving-age-verification/
                                I'm not a fan of online age verification, but if governments are going to require it, we should be demanding that it be done this way.
                                @0x4d6165@transfem.social

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                                • Serf de WebS Serf de Web

                                  @Em0nM4stodon
                                  I agree. Besides using a VPN, are there ways to bollix up such a system?

                                  Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                                  Em :official_verified:
                                  wrote last edited by
                                  #45

                                  @serfdeweb People need to contact their representatives and complain loudly about it.

                                  These legislations need to be repealed and prevented.

                                  The political class needs to hear that citizens reject surveillance firmly, and the focus should be instead on creating platforms that are less addictive, more privacy-respectful, and safer for everyone, including adults.

                                  The time to fight is now.

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                                  • Jonathan Kamens 86 47J This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Jonathan Kamens 86 47J This user is from outside of this forum
                                    Jonathan Kamens 86 47
                                    wrote last edited by
                                    #46

                                    @0x4d6165 OK then. *plonk*

                                    1 Reply Last reply
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                                    • Em :official_verified:E Em :official_verified:

                                      Age Verification isn't a technical problem to solve. If you think that, you're missing the point.

                                      It's a social problem used by authoritarian governments as an excuse for population control and censorship.

                                      It's a fundamental attack on free speech and democracy.

                                      It must not be accommodated.
                                      It must be stopped.

                                      #MassSurveillance #AgeVerification #Privacy #Democracy #HumanRights

                                      Ben ToddM This user is from outside of this forum
                                      Ben ToddM This user is from outside of this forum
                                      Ben Todd
                                      wrote last edited by
                                      #47

                                      @Em0nM4stodon

                                      It is all about surveillance. Protecting children from serious harm on the Internet involves stopped malicious adults accessing child services, not stopping children accessing adult services.

                                      Em :official_verified:E 1 Reply Last reply
                                      0
                                      • AzarilhⓥA Azarilhⓥ

                                        @Em0nM4stodon What about an open source solution that doesn't collect anything, and it simply tells the website "yes" or "no"?

                                        Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                                        Em :official_verified:
                                        wrote last edited by
                                        #48

                                        @Azarilh There would still be a need for this open-source app to collect "something" in order to answer this question. When I say it's not possible, I do not say this lightly. I have been researching this issue for a very long time.

                                        AzarilhⓥA 2 Replies Last reply
                                        0
                                        • Ben ToddM Ben Todd

                                          @Em0nM4stodon

                                          It is all about surveillance. Protecting children from serious harm on the Internet involves stopped malicious adults accessing child services, not stopping children accessing adult services.

                                          Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Em :official_verified:E This user is from outside of this forum
                                          Em :official_verified:
                                          wrote last edited by
                                          #49

                                          @monkeyben

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